Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 15th March 2018, 08:53 PM   #1
Kmaddock
Member
 
Kmaddock's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Ireland
Posts: 532
Default Any idea of what I just purchased

Hi All
Not much to go on I know
I will have item in a week or so and I have no info other than images I have put here
It is the green handled sword I am wondering about, looks like some sort of stone material on the handle
the spdroon looks nice as well, and the British sword should subsidize the price of the other two swords quiet well, I have put these to give idea of scale.

Anyone know what I have, ethnic or European I do not know
Any information much appreciated as always
Regards
Ken
Attached Images
   
Kmaddock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th March 2018, 09:14 PM   #2
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,619
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kmaddock
... It is the green handled sword I am wondering about, looks like some sort of stone material on the handle ...
Bizarre; isn't the (whatever) blade inside its sheath ?
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th March 2018, 09:32 PM   #3
David R
Member
 
David R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 1,048
Default

Green dyed Ivory grip, and a very battered 18th C. hunting sword??
David R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th March 2018, 09:34 PM   #4
Norman McCormick
Member
 
Norman McCormick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,573
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David R
Green dyed Ivory grip, and a very battered 18th C. hunting sword??

Exactly!
Regards,
Norman.
Norman McCormick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th March 2018, 09:39 PM   #5
Kmaddock
Member
 
Kmaddock's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Ireland
Posts: 532
Default

Hi
Yes Fernando it looks as if the sword is in a scabard, I decided not to mention this to see if others taught the same.

Dyed Ivory was that a well known adaptation? I never heard of it, bu5 I don’t know a lot about a lot of things.
Swords are in other part of the country but I should be able to arrange shipment tomorrow and I will post up pictures then, probably not much to discuss with images provided but I am looking forward to seeing what I have bought

Regards

Ken
Kmaddock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th March 2018, 09:54 PM   #6
Norman McCormick
Member
 
Norman McCormick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,573
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kmaddock
Hi
Yes Fernando it looks as if the sword is in a scabard, I decided not to mention this to see if others taught the same.

Dyed Ivory was that a well known adaptation?

Ken
Hi Ken,
It does look like there are remnants of a scabbard but it is difficult to be sure. Dyed ivory is indeed a well known form of embellishment but not common.
Regards,
Norman.
Norman McCormick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th March 2018, 04:42 AM   #7
M ELEY
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NC, U.S.A.
Posts: 2,066
Default

Just repeating and confirming what others have already said...18th century hanger, possibly English, French or American, dyed green ivory was in vogue mid/late 18th c., your piece appears to be missing its cross-guard and pommel cap, but need better pics. And yes, it appears to be stuck in its scabbard. Not an uncommon conundrum, unfortunately. Most of these were hunting pieces, but they were also popular with infantry and naval officers.
mark
M ELEY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th March 2018, 08:07 PM   #8
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,145
Default

See also George Washington's swords here on the forum, specifically the 'fishkill' sword, a green gripped cuttoe/hanger/hunting sword he favoured.
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th March 2018, 09:13 PM   #9
Kmaddock
Member
 
Kmaddock's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Ireland
Posts: 532
Default

Thanks for finding the link to George Washington’s sword I can see the similarities alright
I will have swords by Tuesday or Wednesday
It’s the St Patrick’s day festival here in Ireland so things slow down.

Looking forward to seeing what I have now and I will share pictures next week
Happy St Patrick’s day and if there is any Irish in you at all raise a glass over the weekend!!!
Slainte (cheers is Gaelic)
Ken
Kmaddock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th March 2018, 01:46 AM   #10
Hotspur
Member
 
Hotspur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Nipmuc USA
Posts: 481
Default

If that is the tang of the blade sticking way out, it may be a composite. It also seems to be missing a guard of any type.

Cheers

GC
Hotspur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th March 2018, 06:59 AM   #11
Ian
Vikingsword Staff
 
Ian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 4,006
Default

Hi Ken:

I tried enhancing the pictures you posted, and the handle is a bit more visible in one of them.

Ian.

.
Attached Images
  
Ian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th March 2018, 09:33 AM   #12
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,145
Default

That tang extension may have been for a missing pommel, possibly a lion or an eagle shape, as well as for holding the missing guard piece(s). the green grip may be a bit further forward that it was when the guard piece was there.
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th March 2018, 06:55 PM   #13
Hotspur
Member
 
Hotspur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Nipmuc USA
Posts: 481
Default

Yes, with a quillion block, and cap/pommel, that all might add up.

Cheers

GC
Hotspur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2018, 11:34 AM   #14
Roland_M
Member
 
Roland_M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Germany
Posts: 523
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kmaddock
Anyone know what I have, ethnic or European I do not know
Any information much appreciated as always
Regards
Ken

Hello Ken,

I'm relatively sure, that this is a so called "Jagdplaute", a German slightly curved hunting sword.

Please try this search and you will find more of them:
https://www.google.de/search?q=jagdp...w=1600&bih=864

or this link (only in German): http://www.zietenhusar.wg.am/jagdplaute/

But there is another possibility, it could be an American revolutionary war naval officer's sword. https://www.google.de/search?q=ameri...=1521459846789

In my opinion it is quite unusual for a military sword.


Roland
Attached Images
 

Last edited by Roland_M; 19th March 2018 at 12:49 PM.
Roland_M is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2018, 05:53 PM   #15
Kmaddock
Member
 
Kmaddock's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Ireland
Posts: 532
Default

Hi Roland
Thanks for the post, you might have gotten to the bottom of the identification.
I should have sword tomorrow or Wednesday
I will take more pictures when I have it in hand.
Pity about the missing parts but such is the story.
Regards
Ken
Kmaddock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2018, 05:59 PM   #16
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,145
Default

if the missing bits were silver, it could be they were stripped off and sold for the metal content.

if you have any craft workshops in your area you may find a jeweller that can lostwax cast replacements with the above drawing as a guide. probably cheaper if you use bronze rather than silver. good luck.
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2018, 06:02 PM   #17
Rick
Vikingsword Staff
 
Rick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,258
Default

I've got a suspicion that the Ivory is in fact a piece of Narwhal tusk.
Attached Images
 

Last edited by Rick; 20th March 2018 at 02:21 AM. Reason: sp
Rick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd March 2018, 11:01 PM   #18
Kmaddock
Member
 
Kmaddock's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Ireland
Posts: 532
Default

Hi All
Swords arrived
Here are some better images of my sword
Length of blade is 75 cm
Handle is a further 11 cm
Blade has no markings but some very nice fuller work and is in good enough condition
There is a bit missing from the handle so I can see inside
If it is narwhal or ivory or bone I do not known.
Has anyone got any opinion.It definitely does look like the sword Roland put up I put it closer to the American sword than the German one though?

The remnants we taught was part of scabard was just a strip of leather wound round the blade

I am handy enough at metal work so the silver work might be done.
I have exams coming up but it would be a nice project

The Spadroon is a lovely sword so I will take some pictures of that over the weekend

Regards

Ken
Attached Images
      
Kmaddock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd March 2018, 10:42 AM   #19
Victrix
Member
 
Victrix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Sweden
Posts: 672
Default

The thin lines going round the grip look manmade to me so I would guess it’s made from bone. See how those thin lines have been extended to the short side where the pommel would have been attached. May have been made to imitate narwal to keep costs down? Otherwise it could be narwal with decorative lines added by a craftsman.

The American sword is beautiful and if you could fashion a pommel and guard it would look very nice! I guess the chances of finding loose replacements in the market must be slim?
Victrix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th March 2018, 02:07 AM   #20
M ELEY
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: NC, U.S.A.
Posts: 2,066
Default

I still stick with an English hanger, bone handle with green dye.

Here's a past thread of my lion hilt hanger, just to show the similarities in the blade and fuller.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14342

Last edited by M ELEY; 24th March 2018 at 02:25 AM.
M ELEY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th March 2018, 10:05 AM   #21
Victrix
Member
 
Victrix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Sweden
Posts: 672
Default

I just thought the handle showed remarkable similarities with the American Revolutionary sword pictured above. As is often the case with old swords, it can be tricky to assign a nationality to them! Might indeed be an England finished sword with a German blade??

Thank you for the link to the excellent thread. Must be many threads like that lurking in the forum. I wish they were filed by topic but here the search function is very useful.

Does anyone know what that little chain on the American Revolutionary sword attaching the guard to the pommel is for? I can’t imagine its purpose is to protect the knuckle as it’s far too delicate. Could it be to prevent the wearer from dropping the sword (which would be especially annoying at sea where it might disappear under the waves forever!) like some portepee? Some Hungarian hussar sabres from the second half of the 17thC also have this feature.
Victrix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th March 2018, 11:07 AM   #22
kronckew
Member
 
kronckew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Room 101, Glos. UK
Posts: 4,145
Default

Arabian swords, english mourning swords, and as you see, hunting swords, hangers, and others without knuckle guards can also. I favour the retention option. many still have sword knots...
Attached Images
  
kronckew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th March 2018, 12:48 PM   #23
Victrix
Member
 
Victrix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Sweden
Posts: 672
Default

Hungarian-Polish sabre from Polish Arms by A. Nadolski showing chain.
Attached Images
 
Victrix is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:12 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.