Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 3rd September 2016, 08:05 PM   #1
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 7,459
Default A tiller/stick cannon for comments

I will call it the Montjuic type; but this is only to give it a name, as influenced by various threads where Matchlock introduced a few of these, as apparently several examples were deacessioned by that ex-military museum from Barcelona.
But in fact i have no actual evidence on the provenance of this cannon, for which i would be much obliged for any help towards it ID. Concerning its age, let us assume it is from circa 1450, as per its characteristics; but corrections will be considered.
Pity that one of its former owners decided to cut off its (apparently) original tiller.
Barrel length: 40 cm.
Total length (without haft stump): 53 cm.
Caliber: 10 mm.
Weight: not yet known.
Better pictures will be posted, when it arrives.


.
Attached Images
      

Last edited by fernando : 10th September 2016 at 12:06 PM.
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th September 2016, 03:44 AM   #2
ChrisPer
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 33
Default

Thanks for posting, its a very interesting piece. Is the form of flared muzzle very unusual in guns of this type? I note that the reinforce bands have a soft rounded outer surface form and an impression of strength that speaks of some sophistication in craft.

Last edited by ChrisPer : 4th September 2016 at 03:57 AM.
ChrisPer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th September 2016, 11:29 AM   #3
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 7,459
Default

Thank you Chris,
You can often see flared muzzles out there. HERE is one.
We can also see one in the Museum of Tabor, South Bohemia, dated 1419-1434, used in the city during the Husites wars. Attached is a replica of such example. Amazingly that the Checks called these hand cannons PÍŠT'ALA, meaning tube, which gave the contemporary name pistol (actually pistola in portuguese).

.
Attached Images
 
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th September 2016, 11:32 AM   #4
Marcus den toom
Member
 
Marcus den toom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 468
Default

It is of Montjuic type, no doubt about that (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...hlight=montjuic)

The added barrelmouth piece seems to be Spanish in style. I wil look for medieval sources of Spanish tiller guns to verify this.

All in all a very rare gun.
Marcus den toom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th September 2016, 01:50 PM   #5
Silver Shield
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Phoenix Arizona USA
Posts: 32
Wink WOW

Fernando ,
That is a really wonderful piece !! Id offer 3 large sea shells , one chicken and three colored round stones ! All joking aside its nice to see these early gonne types and preservation seems very nice . Any Markers Marks ?Or Marks of any kind ?
Silver Shield is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th September 2016, 03:45 PM   #6
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 7,459
Default

Thank you Michael,
It is not yet in my possession, but i don't think it has any marks.
However i was told that it is loaded; probably some ball or clod shot in its chamber.
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th October 2016, 12:35 PM   #7
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 7,459
Default

Not much improvement with the new photos. I am not yet motivated to try and extract the contents inside barrel, assuming it is a real ammunition load. I don't have the means to check it close enough nor the tools to pull it out; neither the notion to define whether it is iron or soft lead, which would facilitate the extraction with some screw device.


.
Attached Images
        
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th October 2016, 07:32 PM   #8
Spiridonov
Member
 
Spiridonov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Russia, Leningrad
Posts: 355
Send a message via ICQ to Spiridonov
Default

Thank You! Very interesting barrel! I will be very interesting to make x-ray photo
Spiridonov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th October 2016, 05:25 PM   #9
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 7,459
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiridonov
Thank You! Very interesting barrel! I will be very interesting to make x-ray photo

I am trying to find someone who does this kind of work, Alexander, but i had no results yet.
On the other hand, i measured the interior of the barrel and came to the conclusion that whatever is inside stays within one centimeter from the touch hole ... hardly enough length to contain the load of gunpowder and the projectile.

.
Attached Images
 
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th October 2016, 06:23 PM   #10
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 7,459
Default

X-ray done.
Contrary to my expectations, it was not so difficult to find a place to do it and, also confirming my other expectations, i find it hard to interpreter the images.
I was very well atended by the specialists (from the industrial trade), as they became very interested and wished to help me analize the barrel and the chamber. Besides the X-ray equipment, a boroscope was also used, but without effective results, as its camera was a lateral one and could not visualize frontwards. A pity that the endoscope was out for exterior works and they could not use it.
In any case, one could assume that this gun is not loaded. What i think is visible is a solid section in the core of the chamber, which could well be a sort of plug, even an extension projected from the socket. I wouldn't know how to put this in the propper terms; maybe some of you guys (Alexander?) understand what i am saying or, even better, has the correct idea of what these images represent.
It also looks, at least in my imagination, that the barrel tube was forged in the winding system.
What do you Gentlemen say about this ?

.
Attached Images
     
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th October 2016, 07:32 PM   #11
Andi
Member
 
Andi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Halstenbek, Germany
Posts: 195
Default

Wow Fernando! Congratulations to this excellent images. Great!
Unfortunately such images are too rare in the scientific literature on early guns.

I would agree to you that the barrel was forged and welded of a spiral type metal rod - it looks quite obvious.
Andi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th October 2016, 10:30 PM   #12
Spiridonov
Member
 
Spiridonov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Russia, Leningrad
Posts: 355
Send a message via ICQ to Spiridonov
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
X-ray done.

Hello, Dear Fernando. Thank You very much for the work done. This result show us how important is to do X-rays of 14th and 15th centuries barrels, as they have a fairly complex structure. Unfortunately, we can see this kind of work very rare. It is obvious that the barrel is spiral welded. But it's not the most interesting. The most interesting thing is that the shank of socket is secured not only by press-fitting in the channel of barrel, as due to the fact that between the socket and the shank is a tapered neck. it appears that the shank is held by the sleeve (looks like cup with hole in bottom) into the breech, as the diameter of the holes in the sleeve is less than the diameter of the shank. And it keeps the clutch due to the fact that it's a taper extending from the front end to the rear. I think that way of assemble was such that the shank of the socket inserted into rear end the barrel, then the breech sleeve put on the rear end of the barrel, than sleeve was rolling around the tapered neck of the shank with by a hammer. Do you have any pictures with higher resolution and a more detailed x-ray of the front of the barrel? If so, could you throw on my e-mail ( Spiridonov12@yandex.ru )
With the best regards, Alexander.
Attached Images
 

Last edited by Spiridonov : 19th October 2016 at 10:42 PM.
Spiridonov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th October 2016, 05:33 PM   #13
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 7,459
Default

What a perfect and comprehensive interpretation of the subject, Alexander. The drawing shows a lot of knowledge and speaks for itself. Thank you for having posted it. I have already emailed you the original high resolution pictures. The part of the barrel mouth is not so much complated as i told the X-ray operators to focus more on the breech section.
Once more thank you so much for the lecture.
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th October 2016, 08:47 PM   #14
Shakethetrees
Member
 
Shakethetrees's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 364
Default

A wonderful thread! Matchlock would be weighing in I'm sure.

To see the x ray scan that leaves a clear image of the hidden construction details is something we only dreamed of just a few years ago.

Thanks!
Shakethetrees is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st October 2016, 10:34 AM   #15
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 7,459
Default

Amen to that ... both sentences .
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st October 2016, 11:20 AM   #16
Marcus den toom
Member
 
Marcus den toom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 468
Default

Thank you very much Nando for these X rays of the Tillered hand cannon. It confirms the idea i had about these guns that they are of wound band iron. Combined with the reeinforcing iron bands this could be one of the earliest tiller guns in the world. Wound iron barrels where one of the first type (together with cast brass) and would be the main way to go up to the early 15th century. The only thing withholding me from dating it to the early 15th century for sure is the flared muzzle ring. From the top of my head these where in fashion from about 1430s upward to the 1460s..

The construction of the breech reminds me of some of my tiller hand cannons as well as the montjuic hand cannons, both in Michael's collection and mine. They could be related?
Marcus den toom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd October 2016, 06:39 PM   #17
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 7,459
Default

Well Marcus, concerning the origin of this gun and that of its relatives; we may know their provenance but the origin is another thing. We know that a series of these items were property of Montjuic Castle, but not that they have had any action in that place; simply because this castle was built in 1640, when these guns were already asleep. However we also know that museums do not necessarily exhibit the material of the castles where they are situated, the items in exhibiton being a product of donors ... collectors, families and so. Remember the inscription painted in one of these pieces, from Michl's collection (see post #89 and previous):
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ighlight=SARRIA
Also interesting to notice a detail in the breech construction (shank) in another specimen provenant from Montjuic, also from Michl's collection (see picture attached).
I would then, based on their museum provenance region, donor origins and all, reduce the range of possibilities for the origin of these tiller guns to being Spanish but, what do i know ?


.
Attached Images
 
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 04:31 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.