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Old 6th November 2016, 05:14 PM   #1
Cerjak
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Default A late 16th century Dussack for comment

O.L. 93 cm ; blade L. 79 cm; blade width at hilt 2.9 cm
Marks Passau wolf in one side and one stamp on the ricasso in the two sides
Any comment on it would be welcome.
Best
Cerjak
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Old 6th November 2016, 07:59 PM   #2
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the sword is a very early one so around 1560-1570.
a hybrid model between the baskethilted sword and rapier.
beautiful sperical pommel with a design of plaiting, as also occurred in different guard finals in the middle of the 16th century.
probably the original grip.

one side note:
perhaps the blade is not the original one, because there is some space between the finger guard and the ricasso. but it is an early blade which originates from the third quarter of the 16th century.


very beautiful weapon, congratulations!
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Old 6th November 2016, 10:20 PM   #3
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As Jasper notes, blade may not be original, though still of period. Most of these 'dusagge' in variations were indeed apparently the inspiration or compelling force in the development of the Scottish basket hilt.
Interestingly these often gained the term 'Sinclair sabre' as they were typically with heavy sabre blades, the term a misnomer from an unfortunate event in Norway where a Scottish unit was decimated

The chiseled 'running wolf' is regarded as the distinctive mark of blades from Passau, and the single stamped mark opposite is the 'mill rind' or 'twig' mark often heavily employed in North Italian blade centers. These regions are fairly close in proximity so traffic of blades between them does not seem unlikely.

Very nice example,now to look more toward the interesting motif in pommel and guard plate.
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Old 15th November 2016, 07:49 AM   #4
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similar hilt type in Dutch army Museum.
Attachement JP PUYPE van maurits naar munster.
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Old 15th November 2016, 08:58 AM   #5
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Great Jasper!
Thank you very much for your research
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Old 22nd November 2016, 09:33 AM   #6
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Default a similar hilt

a similar hilt
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Old 23rd November 2016, 10:13 AM   #7
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Two similar hilts below.

The story that created the name "Sinclair Sabre":

At the Battle at Kringen, Norway 16 August 1612 it is likely that both the 400 - 600 Scottish soldiers where armed with the same type of swords that the Norwegian Peasant militia where armed with. The so called "Sinclair sabre" = Dussack.

King Christian IV(1577 - 1648, same king that lost the battle at Lutter 1626) had sent the first shipment of Dussack's to Norway in 1598 among other arms to build up the Norwegian Pesant milita's capability in preparation for war against Sweden. The battle at Kringen was part of this war that came, the Kalmar war 1611 - 1613. Denmark won.

The Peasant Militia was most likely well armed with snaphaunce muskets, hunting spears, pikes, Norwegian battle axes and Tessaks / Dussack's that is the Norwegian name for Dussack.

The Scottish corps under the command of Alexander Ramsay accompanied by George Sinclair was lightly armed and had been given the promise of being properly armed when joining the Swedish army in Southern Sweden. In addition to being well armed, the Norwegian Peasant militia had the advantage of an ambush from the high ground forcing the Scott's to fight in a chokepoint with little space for maneuver and escape. The ambush was sprung with an avalanche of rocks, followed with wooleys of musket fire before a full on attack with Dussack's, axes and pikes. supported by musket fire. Thus almost all Scott's died in the battle. 12 was captured and brought to Akershus castle while a unknown number of prisoners where tortured and executed the evening after the battle. Alexander Ramsay was killed early in the battle and George Sinclair was shoot dead with his pregnant wife during the battle. Brutal times!
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Old 23rd November 2016, 10:17 AM   #8
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Hi Jean Luc,

globular pommels are fairly simple in form but are rarely found on swords and rapiers in the 16thC.

In the Low Countries (Netherlands) unless other countries globular pommels were common between 1575-1600. frequently depicted in Dutch art. on rapiers and around 1650 on smallswords


therefore your transition dussage-rapier fits much better in a Dutch collection than in a French one , Don't you agree

above dussage typeF is a nice example, herewith some more pics.
forsvaret museum Aalborg Denmark nr. FMU.001156/5021/19644
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Old 23rd November 2016, 04:47 PM   #9
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[QUOTE=Tordenskiold1721]Two similar hilts below.
Arne

Thank you very much to have post this two nice examples.
Best
JLC
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Old 23rd November 2016, 05:22 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cornelistromp
Hi Jean Luc,

globular pommels are fairly simple in form but are rarely found on swords and rapiers in the 16thC.

In the Low Countries (Netherlands) unless other countries globular pommels were common between 1575-1600. frequently depicted in Dutch art. on rapiers and around 1650 on smallswords


therefore your transition dussage-rapier fits much better in a Dutch collection than in a French one , Don't you agree

above dussage typeF is a nice example, herewith some more pics.
forsvaret museum Aalborg Denmark nr. FMU.001156/5021/19644


Jasper

Thank you for this additional pics and also museum references who are so important.
"therefore your transition dussage-rapier fits much better in a Dutch collection than in a French one , Don't you agree "

It would be a shame if something happened to this sword.I know that your walls are already full ,and I would be very worried to hear that this sword is laying on your floor. But if you are ready to change your decoration ( less German but more Dutch) I could always help you to make space and could advice you which two hands swords or Katbalger you should sell or swap to me.

best

Jean-Luc
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Old 23rd November 2016, 05:55 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerjak
Jasper

Thank you for this additional pics and also museum references who are so important.
"therefore your transition dussage-rapier fits much better in a Dutch collection than in a French one , Don't you agree "

It would be a shame if something happened to this sword.I know that your walls are already full ,and I would be very worried to hear that this sword is laying on your floor. But if you are ready to change your decoration ( less German but more Dutch) I could always help you to make space and could advice you which two hands swords or Katbalger you should sell or swap to me.

best

Jean-Luc


We can discuss it after! a good bottle of Bordeaux -gcc, because I have a very pretty Afghan rifle to swap that could fit well in your collection.
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Old 23rd November 2016, 06:51 PM   #12
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Just a small correction Jasper. FMU stands for Forsvars Museet that is located at Akershus Fortress in Oslo. This are Norwegian Tessak's imported from Amsterdam and Hamburg between 1598 - approx 1611

Aalborg is in Denmark and I don't think they have a arms and Armour museum. Just so that we stay true to history. It always helps in keeping us honest in understanding this beautiful Pisces

Why do you think this swords has anything to do with Aalborg ? In fact this is the area of the former Denmark Norway where we have not found any Dussack's. Are you simply making things up ?

We can all visit the Norwegian National museum website and search for Tessak and a number of Dussack's will show up:

https://digitaltmuseum.no/search/?a...%3A%22tessak%22

Where you get Aalborg involved in this I simply do not know. When that is said I do have some very good collector friends in Aalborg.

Do you understand the typology you are referring too ? And what literature reference the web site from the Norwegian national museum is using?

This typology is limited to the commonly Tessak's found in Norway and does not cover all Types found in Europe. Also found here:

http://norskevaapen.no/wp-content/u...ssaktgrep21.jpg

The typology was made in a study by Per Terje Norheim and this is the main types found in Norway, imported from Hamburg and likely Amsterdam. Delivered in Bergen and Christiania(Now Oslo). Just like Petersen's typology from 1919 is based on Viking swords found in Norway only and later expended by Oakeshott typology that includes Viking swords and later swords from the whole of Europe, I am sure someone will switch on to Per Terje Norheims work and make a lot of money from expanding his typology. History has a tendency to repeat itself. This might be the type of work that would be right up your ally? = Someones else intellectual property translated and expanded in the English language.

"It's in attention to detail truth will prevail"

Last edited by Tordenskiold1721 : 23rd November 2016 at 09:02 PM. Reason: Typo
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Old 24th November 2016, 06:07 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tordenskiold1721
Just a small correction Jasper. FMU stands for Forsvars Museet that is located at Akershus Fortress in Oslo. This are Norwegian Tessak's imported from Amsterdam and Hamburg between 1598 - approx 1611

Aalborg is in Denmark and I don't think they have a arms and Armour museum. Just so that we stay true to history. It always helps in keeping us honest in understanding this beautiful Pisces



sorry my mistake, there is also a Forsvars museum in Aalborg, just mixed up two museums with the same name.

this is historically and scientifically speaking, of course, totally unacceptable to make such a huge mistake.

http://www.forsvarsmuseum.dk/


I always (try to) put the source with the articles and photos I place.

you should try to do the same, in the interest of "staying true to history".


however the real reason for your overreaction is that you're like me're very interested in obtaining the dussage of post #1.

this I do understand because it is a very beautiful and exceptional specimen.

best,
Jasper

Last edited by cornelistromp : 24th November 2016 at 06:43 AM.
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Old 24th November 2016, 07:38 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cornelistromp
We can discuss it after! a good bottle of Bordeaux -gcc, because I have a very pretty Afghan rifle to swap that could fit well in your collection.

Jasper ,
Of course we can always discuss but even with a mathusalem I do think that you have any chance with this swap ,and you did not tell me if this Kalashnikov is Chinese or Russian pattern.
best

Jean-Luc
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Old 24th November 2016, 09:14 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cornelistromp
sorry my mistake, there is also a Forsvars museum in Aalborg, just mixed up two museums with the same name.

this is historically and scientifically speaking, of course, totally unacceptable to make such a huge mistake.

http://www.forsvarsmuseum.dk/


I always (try to) put the source with the articles and photos I place.

you should try to do the same, in the interest of "staying true to history".


however the real reason for your overreaction is that you're like me're very interested in obtaining the dussage of post #1.

this I do understand because it is a very beautiful and exceptional specimen.

best,
Jasper


Yes, you are 100% right, as you I am also interested in the Dussage / Dussack / Tessak :-) My apology for going a bit overboard in aforementioned post.
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Old 24th November 2016, 10:08 AM   #16
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honest! thank you, apology accepted .

best,
Jasper

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Old 24th November 2016, 06:00 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerjak
Jasper ,
Of course we can always discuss but even with a mathusalem I do think that you have any chance with this swap ,and you did not tell me if this Kalashnikov is Chinese or Russian pattern.
best

Jean-Luc


it is older, something like this
forget it, I have a better idea, the '47 we drink '48 we swap for the sword.


jasper
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Old 24th November 2016, 07:33 PM   #18
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This has been a most fascinating discussion toward the dusagge (tessack) and as has been well noted, it is good to 'stay true to history', which is best achieved as we not only correct each other as required, but ourselves at times.
In my original post (#3) I made reference to the term 'Sinclair sabre' and the misnomer's reference to the unfortunate 'battle' in Norway. I would like to thank Tordenskiold for the accounts of that event, the Battle of Kringen, August 26,1612.

In researching more on this curious 'misnomer' in "The Early Basket Hilt in Britain" Claude Blair, (in "Scottish Weapons and Fortifications 1100-1800", ed. David Caldwell, 1981, pp.190-191)...it is noted that with regard to the Scottish units of mercenaries associated with these swords, "...nobody appears ever to have produced the slightest evidence to connect any 'Sinclair sabres' with it'.

As has been previously noted in the discussion here, these types of swords had been brought into Norway for militia much earlier by Christian IV perhaps 1580s or 90s. While I had noted that these were typically curved blades they were apparently straight as well.

The use of George Sinclair's name with reference to these swords seems to have had more to do with Scottish peerage and clan tradition than actual use of these by Scots in Norway, or his alleged 'leadership' of these forces.
Actually Sinclair was only a Captain according to some sources (incl. Puype as noted by Jasper), and the force was technically under the command of Lt. Col. Alexander Ramsey.
These troops were to land in Romsdal, in Norway, to travel south to Sweden to join their forces there, and their arms augmented as well. They are said to have been lightly armed, with some basket hilts and mostly lochaber axes and other polearms.

Sinclair and most of his troops were well acquainted with these areas of Norway, in fact Sinclairs clan are said to originate from these areas and his peerage to the 5th Earl of Caithness also probably played a key role in the development of this 'collectors term'. In the patriotic and romanticized Highland fervor of the Victorian era, as well as the 'basket' type hilt of these swords led to collectors of the times thus creating this term.

These type basket hilt swords were likely produced in Germany, though it is noted that many if not most were from Styria (Austria). In this case, I am inclined to think this example with running wolf would be German as I am under the impression that this well known mark was not used in Styria. Of course I would welcome correction on that note as it is simply a cursory opinion .

I just thought that this historical detail might add to our appreciation of the forementioned background on these swords.

References noted by Mr. Blair also;
"History of the Scottish Expedition to Norway in 1612"
T. Michell, London, 1886
"Die Norske Sinclair Sabler" Holger Jacobsen, 'Vaabenhistoriske Aarboger'
1934-36
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Old 25th November 2016, 08:10 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cornelistromp
it is older, something like this
forget it, I have a better idea, the '47 we drink '48 we swap for the sword.


jasper

Jasper

There is some details who need to be to be fixed…
1 )we must stay in the same year 1947 So the quality will be already checked so I will not be worried about the condition of the second bottle.
2) so first Bottle for the discussion ,the second for the swap, and the third I will need it in order to forget my beautiful sword!
3) Tell me which model of corkscrew I should bring to you for open the bottle (the folding model is Dutch)
Awaiting your comment on it.
PS the afghan riffle we could put it in the fireplace.
best
Jean-Luc
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Old 25th November 2016, 08:26 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
This has been a most fascinating discussion toward the dusagge (tessack) and as has been well noted, it is good to 'stay true to history', which is best achieved as we not only correct each other as required, but ourselves at times.
In my original post (#3) I made reference to the term 'Sinclair sabre' and the misnomer's reference to the unfortunate 'battle' in Norway. I would like to thank Tordenskiold for the accounts of that event, the Battle of Kringen, August 26,1612.

In researching more on this curious 'misnomer' in "The Early Basket Hilt in Britain" Claude Blair, (in "Scottish Weapons and Fortifications 1100-1800", ed. David Caldwell, 1981, pp.190-191)...it is noted that with regard to the Scottish units of mercenaries associated with these swords, "...nobody appears ever to have produced the slightest evidence to connect any 'Sinclair sabres' with it'.

As has been previously noted in the discussion here, these types of swords had been brought into Norway for militia much earlier by Christian IV perhaps 1580s or 90s. While I had noted that these were typically curved blades they were apparently straight as well.

The use of George Sinclair's name with reference to these swords seems to have had more to do with Scottish peerage and clan tradition than actual use of these by Scots in Norway, or his alleged 'leadership' of these forces.
Actually Sinclair was only a Captain according to some sources (incl. Puype as noted by Jasper), and the force was technically under the command of Lt. Col. Alexander Ramsey.
These troops were to land in Romsdal, in Norway, to travel south to Sweden to join their forces there, and their arms augmented as well. They are said to have been lightly armed, with some basket hilts and mostly lochaber axes and other polearms.

Sinclair and most of his troops were well acquainted with these areas of Norway, in fact Sinclairs clan are said to originate from these areas and his peerage to the 5th Earl of Caithness also probably played a key role in the development of this 'collectors term'. In the patriotic and romanticized Highland fervor of the Victorian era, as well as the 'basket' type hilt of these swords led to collectors of the times thus creating this term.

These type basket hilt swords were likely produced in Germany, though it is noted that many if not most were from Styria (Austria). In this case, I am inclined to think this example with running wolf would be German as I am under the impression that this well known mark was not used in Styria. Of course I would welcome correction on that note as it is simply a cursory opinion .

I just thought that this historical detail might add to our appreciation of the forementioned background on these swords.

References noted by Mr. Blair also;
"History of the Scottish Expedition to Norway in 1612"
T. Michell, London, 1886
"Die Norske Sinclair Sabler" Holger Jacobsen, 'Vaabenhistoriske Aarboger'
1934-36


I am proud that this sword has inspired a such interesting discussion toward the dusagge.
Thank you Arne ,Jasper and Jim!
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Old 25th November 2016, 09:13 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
This has been a most fascinating discussion toward the dusagge (tessack) and as has been well noted, it is good to 'stay true to history', which is best achieved as we not only correct each other as required, but ourselves at times.
In my original post (#3) I made reference to the term 'Sinclair sabre' and the misnomer's reference to the unfortunate 'battle' in Norway. I would like to thank Tordenskiold for the accounts of that event, the Battle of Kringen, August 26,1612.

In researching more on this curious 'misnomer' in "The Early Basket Hilt in Britain" Claude Blair, (in "Scottish Weapons and Fortifications 1100-1800", ed. David Caldwell, 1981, pp.190-191)...it is noted that with regard to the Scottish units of mercenaries associated with these swords, "...nobody appears ever to have produced the slightest evidence to connect any 'Sinclair sabres' with it'.

As has been previously noted in the discussion here, these types of swords had been brought into Norway for militia much earlier by Christian IV perhaps 1580s or 90s. While I had noted that these were typically curved blades they were apparently straight as well.

The use of George Sinclair's name with reference to these swords seems to have had more to do with Scottish peerage and clan tradition than actual use of these by Scots in Norway, or his alleged 'leadership' of these forces.
Actually Sinclair was only a Captain according to some sources (incl. Puype as noted by Jasper), and the force was technically under the command of Lt. Col. Alexander Ramsey.
These troops were to land in Romsdal, in Norway, to travel south to Sweden to join their forces there, and their arms augmented as well. They are said to have been lightly armed, with some basket hilts and mostly lochaber axes and other polearms.

Sinclair and most of his troops were well acquainted with these areas of Norway, in fact Sinclairs clan are said to originate from these areas and his peerage to the 5th Earl of Caithness also probably played a key role in the development of this 'collectors term'. In the patriotic and romanticized Highland fervor of the Victorian era, as well as the 'basket' type hilt of these swords led to collectors of the times thus creating this term.

These type basket hilt swords were likely produced in Germany, though it is noted that many if not most were from Styria (Austria). In this case, I am inclined to think this example with running wolf would be German as I am under the impression that this well known mark was not used in Styria. Of course I would welcome correction on that note as it is simply a cursory opinion .

I just thought that this historical detail might add to our appreciation of the forementioned background on these swords.

References noted by Mr. Blair also;
"History of the Scottish Expedition to Norway in 1612"
T. Michell, London, 1886
"Die Norske Sinclair Sabler" Holger Jacobsen, 'Vaabenhistoriske Aarboger'
1934-36



Re: correction
correction brought in a decent manner is fine, on the other hand unsubstantiated allegations as post 12 are unseemly and probably caused by a combination of frustration and envy, if self-correction is not working , professional assistance could probably provide solution.

Re: dussage type with a straight blade.
About the dussage and variations of basket hilts Seitz mentioned the following in Blankwaffen p 325;
Towards the end of the 1600th c you find the same principle ( of basket hilt) in different forms and so also in a larger number of militarily types in the weapons bought by Christian IV in Germany for the arming of the country population of Norway. See attachement
Basket hilts bought by Christian IV in 1589 1604 and 1617 (schiavona).

on the origins of the war booty of Sinclairsabel Seitz mentioned following:
Sinclair sabel is a perhaps romanticized conception of the war booty which was taken from a Scottish troop under the command of captain George Sinclair.
(Jacobsen 1937/1939)
………… From a theoretical point of view the matter could be more complex with regard to the way the southern Germans weapon took to Norway.
That both the Scottish and the Norwegian peasants could be equipped with such weapons. There is nothing known about it.


best,
Jasper
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Old 25th November 2016, 09:21 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cerjak
Jasper

There is some details who need to be to be fixed…
1 )we must stay in the same year 1947 So the quality will be already checked so I will not be worried about the condition of the second bottle.
2) so first Bottle for the discussion ,the second for the swap, and the third I will need it in order to forget my beautiful sword!
3) Tell me which model of corkscrew I should bring to you for open the bottle (the folding model is Dutch)
Awaiting your comment on it.
PS the afghan riffle we could put it in the fireplace.
best
Jean-Luc


1. is not possible , I have t0 check the market or can I change the year to 1989 or 1990 ?
2. you still have another nice one from a famous collection.
3a. the Dutch one..... of course.
3b. already done last weekend when it was cold here.

best,
jasper
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Old 25th November 2016, 09:41 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cornelistromp
...correction brought in a decent manner is fine, on the other hand unsubstantiated allegations as post 12 are unseemly and probably caused by a combination of frustration and envy, if self-correction is not working , professional assistance could probably provide solution...

Now it is you who is going overboard, Jasper.
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Old 25th November 2016, 02:59 PM   #24
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Quote:
From a theoretical point of view the matter could be more complex with regard to the way the southern Germans weapon took to Norway. That both the Scottish and the Norwegian peasants could be equipped with such weapons. There is nothing known about it.


We do have archives confirming that delivery from 1589 up until around 1611(17) of this swords to Bergen in Norway. I will try to give a short as possible answer to your statement that I inter-pit as a question as there is a lot of details, dates numbers and archives documenting the below:

04 December 1604 King Christian IV passed a law "In The Book of Christian IV Norwegian law" detailing what type of arms the peasant militia must be armed with. There is also archives that confirms numbers and types of weapons in the different districts and areas of Norway. Based on this we know the Norwegian militia at Kringen 26 August must have been armed with Tessack's. We know pretty much in detail how the Norwegian militia was armed from 1604 based on the law passed making all Peasant part of the militia and their size of land and position / financial status details what type of arms they should carry. Inspections of the weaponry was done every Sunday outside Church where those that was not armed according the law of 1604 would be fined. This was a serious matter !!

If we want to approach this law from an academical angle it is probably Professor. Brandt literature from The Institute for Archaeology and History in Norway that is most detailed about the law it self as it is a modernization of the "Leidang" from the Viking age and early middle ages on arming and taxation for arming of the Kings "army".

Some of the literature you are referring to is unfortunately a bit outdated. The examples you show above from Sweden was collected by The Swedish national museum in Norway during the period Norway was part of Sweden 1814 - 1905. The Swedes took the "matter fairly easy" and mixed some of this weapons with Venetian Schiavona etc as you show in your literature. Just because it is written it is not necessarily always the truth...

On the Leidang law on arming and taxation for financing arms, later modified in Christian IV law for Norway 04 December 1604(The law leading to the Tessack and other arms being exported to Norway) :

Use google translate:

https://snl.no/leidang

Use google translate:

http://www.hf.uio.no/iakh/forskning...kilder/chr4web/

Use google translate:

http://www.wikiwand.com/no/Tessak

So, we have the law(Document) and the archives that documents the Tessack's delivery to Norway and the documentation on what the law is built on. Date and numbers of delivery and inventories held in Church books and archives from districts.

What is correct in what you assume that there is nothing that confirms that the Scott's where armed with the Dussage, other than some examples in museums that is said to be captured at Kringen 26 August 1612 but this examples could be misgivings and actually weapons from the militia.

The term "Sinclair Sabre" could very well have come to be because the Tessack was the sword type used against the Scott's just as in Denmark and Norway certain types of swords are called "Schwedendegen" as they where intended to be used against the Sweds. There is a lot of literature on this but unfortunately not in the English language.

The good thing about history and antique weapons is when we Digg deep enough we find the answers or the right questions in most cases.

Here is one of my Tessak's with a Solingen blade that I bought from a Scottish dealer. We call this "A" type(Per Terje Norheims Typology) This hilt type is the most commonly found in Norway. We see this type with both straight and curved blades:
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Last edited by Tordenskiold1721 : 25th November 2016 at 04:58 PM.
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Old 25th November 2016, 04:16 PM   #25
Jim McDougall
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While I cannot add much to the connoisseur's discussion on wines (most wine I ever drink is from a box )....I can clarify that my note on corrections was toward the fact that I often correct myself as new findings or comments from others provide more compelling evidence. In my view that is all part of learning and sharing information.
Personally I think it is good to allow a wide berth where interactions involve cultural and linguistic differences.

Getting back to this valuable and constructive discussion on the 'Sinclair sabre' case, thank you gentlemen for the additional notes and references.

Again, it remains inconclusive on whether or not any tessaks were among the Scots ranks in this unfortunate event at Kringen in 1612. References as noted, suggest that the Scots were 'lightly' armed as they expected to receive more arms upon arrival in Sweden.
It is clear that as a matter of record, the tessaks were used by the Norwegian forces at this time, and these had been supplied from Germany.

I think that the examples of these swords in the museum being among battlefield debris after Kringen may be labeled as from the Scottish forces as a typical assumption, perhaps supporting tacitly the 'Sinclair' legacy.
It is noted that the Scots did have some basket hilts, and while curved blade types were known ('turcael'), it does not seem that these troops' swords had those, nor that one of these tessaks would have been confused with such examples.

The only, and tenuous, explanation for the possibility of tessaks being among the Scottish forces would be that they had long prior been quite familiar with the Norwegian regions where they landed. In fact, Sinclair's heritage and ancestry had come from these areas, and it seems odd that the Scots were sided with Sweden. With that history of contact, it is tempting to consider that the tessak was at least somewhat known to the Scots prior to 1612, and perhaps some had been diffused to Scotland in degree.

Getting back to the association of the tessak to the Kringen battle by the Sinclair moniker, again, that was strictly a romanticly oriented case commemorating Sinclair due to his peerage and connections to Norway.
It would seem that the term presumed the Scots were actually armed with these.

The idea that the term would have been given to these swords from the intent to use them against Sinclair, in the manner of the swords termed to schwedendegen does not seem likely to me. The use of such colloquial terms for a weapon may apply more broadly as toward the Swedes as noted, but not likely toward a past event or a vanquished leader.
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Old 25th November 2016, 04:41 PM   #26
Tordenskiold1721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
The idea that the term would have been given to these swords from the intent to use them against Sinclair, in the manner of the swords termed to schwedendegen does not seem likely to me. The use of such colloquial terms for a weapon may apply more broadly as toward the Swedes as noted, but not likely toward a past event or a vanquished leader.



I think you summarize it all very well.

I would like to see more examples of the Dussack's used in the low countries and know more about by who and when they where introduced and who used them for what purpose as this type seemingly originates from Styria, Southern Germany, today Austria and some parts of today Northern Italy. Before spreading in central Europe and Northern Europe.

More photos of good examples like Jean's would be great to see !!


.

Last edited by fernando : 25th November 2016 at 06:12 PM. Reason: Perhaps best not to follow the inuendos path.
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Old 26th November 2016, 06:33 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tordenskiold1721
I think you summarize it all very well.

I would like to see more examples of the Dussack's used in the low countries and know more about by who and when they where introduced and who used them for what purpose as this type seemingly originates from Styria, Southern Germany, today Austria and some parts of today Northern Italy. Before spreading in central Europe and Northern Europe.

More photos of good examples like Jean's would be great to see !!

.


on nomenclatur weapons often kept their original name after being exported.
early basket hilts 1550-1580 in german language pferdemaulkorb-gefaess swedish Mulekorgs-fæste.
later dussage and variations thereof, probably derived from the( tjech?) word dusaken, an early form of steel alone.

schwedendegen the term refers to me to a later Type Felddegen around 1640, a kind of early Walloon type. see attcachement
the weapon count (Våpenting) you mentioned went over a long period of time over 150 years.

Are there early records known just after 1604 where these swords are described and was the term schwedendegen known before 1640 ?

I will later post some examples of basket hilts which I believe originated in the Netherlands

best,
Jasper
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Old 28th November 2016, 09:49 AM   #28
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for early possible Dutch basket hilt form see

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ght=basket+hilt post #135

P. Norheim Type C.
there was a type C sword with a Dutch name in the blade in the Visser collection and several baskets only of this type have been found in the Netherlands, probably spare parts or perhaps this type was assembled in the Netherlands.

best,
Jasper


picture copyright by Carl koppeschaar
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Old 29th November 2016, 07:38 AM   #29
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the dussage of post 1 and below dussage 1570/80 are both of type F ( Norheim -Army museum's Yearbook 1971 ?), nevertheless there are significant differences in the hilt design.

the dussage of #1 has an open structure hilt design, such as the earliest examples, and small protective plate with two additional bars at each side of the plate.
later developed, these 2 bars and plate were probably replaced by a bigger shell plate, as below example. therefor the dussage of post #1 can be dated a little earlier.

a classification of its own for the type dussage of #1 instead of placing it as a subtype under F could be justified.

best,
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Old 29th November 2016, 03:59 PM   #30
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Jasper,
This beautiful dussage would fit much better with his sister in a French collection than in your collection.
The three together would make a nice set And I don’t have Dussage sabre !

Best
Jean-Luc
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