African knights - African armour collection thread

LinusLinothorax · 22nd September 2015, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

For anyone interested in Khedival Egypt and Sudanese mahdi period armor I have put together a Pinterest site with all of the armor images I have found so far, although I probably have a few still hidden on my hard drive that I will add if they turn up and I will add any I find at a later date. I also have a general Khedive of Egypt Pinterest site with some great photos etc.

Armor of Khedival Egypt and the Sudanese Mahdist state.
https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiq...ese-mahdist-s/

The Khedive of Egypt.
https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiq...ives-of-egypt/

Amazing! Maybe you or someone else here could do something similiar for the other armours which will come together in this thread?

Jim McDougall · 22nd September 2015, 07:14 PM

Excellent responses and great detail and information everyone!
Linus has a great suggestion regarding the spectrum of body armours which have come into the discussion here, and while analogous to this discussion they all certainly have their own histories.

What is excellent here is the participation of so many in discovering more on the history of these armours and revising or reinforcing published data and generally held perceptions as required. It is our best hope that members and readers here continue research and share findings,
here we learn together!

Excellent notes pertaining to the helmet production Estcrh, and interesting to see that this material is misquoted, unfortunately not at all uncommon in early writings. However I would note here that Wikipedia is not entirely a useless source, but indeed must be used with caution and as you say, the sources must be rechecked. This is as far as I have known, pretty standard procedure for all published material, and just as with those resources, pertinent data must be rechecked. These are all benchmarks for further research.

Regarding the Wilkinson data, probably the best source for confirmation would be Mr Robert Wilkinson himself. He is a brilliant scholar, author and archivist who probably has more data on anything Wilkinson or associated than anyone else. It seems quite possible that some instances of material on these topics might have come from personal contact with him as he is quite active online and most helpful to peoples queries.

It is remarkable that a single 'chestnut' like the 1899 reference noted by Estrcrh can be the seed for numerous misquotes and notions in so much subsequent material. That is why what we do here is so important, and it is virtually incumbent on us to resolve these matters and preserve the corrected data.

Ian, what a fascinating aside on the 'Blemmyes'! and thank you for the interesting true story on this folklore. It is indeed intriguing to see how visual perceptions of armour in use, often somewhat outlandish to be sure, could lead to these bizarre notions and tall tales.

nKante, what a superb job of recreating this amazing armour and dress! This is excellent to see the key items used by these warriors in full dimension and preserving this wonderful heritage. Bravo!!!

estcrh · 22nd September 2015, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I would note here that Wikipedia is not entirely a useless source, but indeed must be used with caution and as you say, the sources must be rechecked.

Regarding the Wilkinson data, probably the best source for confirmation would be Mr Robert Wilkinson himself. He is a brilliant scholar, author and archivist who probably has more data on anything Wilkinson or associated than anyone else.

Jim, I have actually created several articles on Wikipedia about Japanese armor, weapons and horse related equipment and edited many more, adding good images and verifiable references. I have also added, categorized and edited thousands of images on Wikimedia Commons. They are both usefull sites when the information is correct. Unfortunately in this case when I searched for the information supposedly contained in the Wikipedia references I could find nothing, that is what I meant by "useless". The references could be good but unless someone can trace the references back and see for themselves then they are not useful for research.

It is quite possible that some of the armor used by the Khedives forces did in fact come from Wilkinson, but until the smoking gun is found it is best to let people know that Wilkinson "may" have made some of the armor rather than say they absolutely did make some of the armor. Your suggestion about contacting Wilkinson directly is an excellent approach.

Jim McDougall · 22nd September 2015, 10:58 PM

Absolutely, and as you can see as a reliable participant on Wikipedia, it is all very much relative, and many entries such as those you placed are entirely usable. As I noted, it is incumbent on the user to take caution in the use of the material and must serve as a benchmark, not a final citation.

With Pininterest, I must admit I am largely unfamiliar but I know my wife, daughters etc use it a great deal. I had never thought of it as a resource for research as I thought it was mostly montage's of unattributed photos. While these are of course wonderfully attractive and intriguing, I have thought they were not especially helpful without captioning or pertinent identifying data. Is this perception incorrect?
It would be admittedly a great resource if indeed with those factors.

Actually with the armor, it seems references I had seen noted the mail had come from Birmingham, of course the key industrial area known for arms and all manner of equipment. Wilkinson was of course not in Birmingham so perhaps it might have been a Wilkinson subcontractor. Of these there were a good number, especially for colonially intended products. It seems that Mole was one for swords for example in those headed for India.

After Omdurman and during the Condominium, there was such a demand for souveniers that when supplies of actual items from the Sudanese faltered, there were facsimile items such as spearheads etc made in Birmingham to supply the souks.

The equipage of the Mahdist forces was certainly a hodgepodge and gathered from all kinds of sources, so to see varying helmets, swords, etc. must have been amazing. The sound mail hauberks from Mamluk/Ottoman sources certainly would have been represented in considerable numbers.

The examples of British manufacture which were apparently in degree with the Khedival forces as I found, were left and only the helmets taken, along of course with rifles etc. In the early part of the Mahdiyya most tribesmen did not even have swords. In references I have seen, many of the rank and file had wooden swords, and retrieved the swords of the fallen during the combats.

It would be extremely difficult to assert the presence of or absence of certain types of arms and armor in these campaigns due to the remarkably ersatz nature of equipping these forces. It is still interesting to seek any examples which may have been used in degree however.

estcrh · 22nd September 2015, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

With Pininterest, I must admit I am largely unfamiliar but I know my wife, daughters etc use it a great deal. I had never thought of it as a resource for research as I thought it was mostly montage's of unattributed photos. While these are of course wonderfully attractive and intriguing, I have thought they were not especially helpful without captioning or pertinent identifying data. Is this perception incorrect?
It would be admittedly a great resource if indeed with those factors.

Jim, Pinterest is currently the best way to store and share photos and information with other people, basically everyone can have/be their own mini Wikipedia, each Pinterest post is allowed a 500 character description, if this is not enough one can write as much as they want on a notepad on their computer, they can then turn what they have written into a .jpg image by doing a screen print etc and saving it on their computer using an editor such as Irfanview, and then by using an editor they can easily attach/combine what they wrote to the image they want to post. I find that 500 characters is usually enough to adequitely describe most photos. You can also insert links to websites, articles, pdf etc.

If you have not already done so, please take a look at my Pinterest page and take a few minutes to open some of the categories I have created and look at the photos I have posted, read some descriptions and see for yourself, let me know what you think.

A few short years ago you could find almost no online information or photos of Khedival armor, now try a simple google search such as "khedive armor", see what you find under "web", then look under "images", no doubt you will see the real power of Pinterest. Due to Googles powerful search engine the internet is full of information and images of "khedive armor" for anyone to easily find, taken directly from Pinterest, forums, auctions, books and dealers websites. Some of what you will find was just posted a day or two ago, to me it is really amazing.

My Pinterest page.
https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiques/

estcrh · 22nd September 2015, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LinusLinothorax

Amazing! Maybe you or someone else here could do something similiar for the other armours which will come together in this thread?

I have done just that for many types of armor, weapons, photos etc.
https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiques/

You just need a data base of photos and correct information that can be merged together so that people can learn from what you have created. I often hear people talk about 'research", but if it is not readly and easily available to anyone then what good is the best reasearch, it may as well not exist. At one point I used Photobucket, Wikimedia Commons and Wikipedia to store photos and information but Pinterest allows anyone to instantly create a searchable database for whatever they have an interest in, as you can see.

LinusLinothorax · 22nd September 2015, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by estcrh

I have done just that for many types of armor, weapons, photos etc.
https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiques/

You just need a data base of photos and correct information that can be merged together so that people can learn from what you have created. I often hear people talk about 'research", but if it is not readly and easily available to anyone then what good is the best reasearch, it may as well not exist. At one point I used Photobucket, Wikimedia Commons and Wikipedia to store photos and information but Pinterest allows anyone to instantly create a searchable database for whatever they have an interest in, as you can see.

These are some nice collections you made there, but if i see it right a collection called "African armours" is still missing. I guess if we have some more material posted in this thread you can create that very collection

If you need any more informations about the things i posted just tell me and i will write you a pm will all the informations i have.

estcrh · 23rd September 2015, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LinusLinothorax

These are some nice collections you made there, but if i see it right a collection called "African armours" is still missing. I guess if we have some more material posted in this thread you can create that very collection

If you need any more informations about the things i posted just tell me and i will write you a pm will all the informations i have.

Ok, I have created a Pinterest category for African armor, I will be adding images from my hard drive, forums and the internet, you can watch and hopefully add any additional information which may be missing or correct any image descriptions which you may find to be wrong. If this goes as planned it will eventually be the worlds largest African armor gallery/data base in the world. Images posted here will be added to my Pinterest category if they are relevant.

African armor.
https://www.pinterest.com/worldantiques/african-armor/

22nd September 2015, 07:14 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	Excellent responses and great detail and information everyone! Linus has a great suggestion regarding the spectrum of body armours which have come into the discussion here, and while analogous to this discussion they all certainly have their own histories. What is excellent here is the participation of so many in discovering more on the history of these armours and revising or reinforcing published data and generally held perceptions as required. It is our best hope that members and readers here continue research and share findings, here we learn together! Excellent notes pertaining to the helmet production Estcrh, and interesting to see that this material is misquoted, unfortunately not at all uncommon in early writings. However I would note here that Wikipedia is not entirely a useless source, but indeed must be used with caution and as you say, the sources must be rechecked. This is as far as I have known, pretty standard procedure for all published material, and just as with those resources, pertinent data must be rechecked. These are all benchmarks for further research. Regarding the Wilkinson data, probably the best source for confirmation would be Mr Robert Wilkinson himself. He is a brilliant scholar, author and archivist who probably has more data on anything Wilkinson or associated than anyone else. It seems quite possible that some instances of material on these topics might have come from personal contact with him as he is quite active online and most helpful to peoples queries. It is remarkable that a single 'chestnut' like the 1899 reference noted by Estrcrh can be the seed for numerous misquotes and notions in so much subsequent material. That is why what we do here is so important, and it is virtually incumbent on us to resolve these matters and preserve the corrected data. Ian, what a fascinating aside on the 'Blemmyes'! and thank you for the interesting true story on this folklore. It is indeed intriguing to see how visual perceptions of armour in use, often somewhat outlandish to be sure, could lead to these bizarre notions and tall tales. nKante, what a superb job of recreating this amazing armour and dress! This is excellent to see the key items used by these warriors in full dimension and preserving this wonderful heritage. Bravo!!!

22nd September 2015, 10:58 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	Absolutely, and as you can see as a reliable participant on Wikipedia, it is all very much relative, and many entries such as those you placed are entirely usable. As I noted, it is incumbent on the user to take caution in the use of the material and must serve as a benchmark, not a final citation. With Pininterest, I must admit I am largely unfamiliar but I know my wife, daughters etc use it a great deal. I had never thought of it as a resource for research as I thought it was mostly montage's of unattributed photos. While these are of course wonderfully attractive and intriguing, I have thought they were not especially helpful without captioning or pertinent identifying data. Is this perception incorrect? It would be admittedly a great resource if indeed with those factors. Actually with the armor, it seems references I had seen noted the mail had come from Birmingham, of course the key industrial area known for arms and all manner of equipment. Wilkinson was of course not in Birmingham so perhaps it might have been a Wilkinson subcontractor. Of these there were a good number, especially for colonially intended products. It seems that Mole was one for swords for example in those headed for India. After Omdurman and during the Condominium, there was such a demand for souveniers that when supplies of actual items from the Sudanese faltered, there were facsimile items such as spearheads etc made in Birmingham to supply the souks. The equipage of the Mahdist forces was certainly a hodgepodge and gathered from all kinds of sources, so to see varying helmets, swords, etc. must have been amazing. The sound mail hauberks from Mamluk/Ottoman sources certainly would have been represented in considerable numbers. The examples of British manufacture which were apparently in degree with the Khedival forces as I found, were left and only the helmets taken, along of course with rifles etc. In the early part of the Mahdiyya most tribesmen did not even have swords. In references I have seen, many of the rank and file had wooden swords, and retrieved the swords of the fallen during the combats. It would be extremely difficult to assert the presence of or absence of certain types of arms and armor in these campaigns due to the remarkably ersatz nature of equipping these forces. It is still interesting to seek any examples which may have been used in degree however.