Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 21st November 2013, 12:20 AM   #31
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andi
Don't you think that the newtron-tomographic and radiograpic images of the cannonballs from Mary Rose may also suggest that the lead ball could have been casted arund the iron core? The position of the iron core on the edge of one side of the lead ball indicates to me that it was casted and the iron clod was positioned outside of the centre while laying on the bottom of form. Even when i guess that an experienced metal caster should be able to produce balls with a centered core.

Or is it possible that the emphasis was intentially dislocated from the center of weight? - Bus this wouldn't make any sense to me.

Hi Andi,

There is of course more than one possibility how these iron cores could have been made.
All I can tell with authority is that mine was cast in a mold, and hammering them to such a smooth and perfect surface is just out of my mind (without intending to brag, I got a lot of smithing experience).
I will post images soon though.

Best,
Michael
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st November 2013, 04:17 PM   #32
Matchlock
(deceased)
 
Matchlock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
Default

The sample from collection, weighing 1 kg and very similar to the bottom image in post #28.

The traces where the mold halves joined are clearly visible, so it was cast.
It weighs 1.2 kg!

Any guesses what the central holes on the six larger sides might have been for?


Best,
Michael
Attached Images
    

Last edited by Matchlock; 21st November 2013 at 08:55 PM.
Matchlock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th September 2015, 02:32 PM   #33
Marcus den toom
Member
 
Marcus den toom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 493
Default Clodshot with stone core

I bought these pieces a few weeks ago from two seperet metal detector enthausiast.
The first three where found near a castle in Boxmeer, The Netherlands (south east, near the river Maas).

The first one weighs 58grams and has a diameter of 25,5mm when measured at the flatened side around the middle. This is the most likely bore caliber.

The second weighs 31grams and is 20mm in diameter.

The third has lost most of its stone core, but some smaller stones remain. It also weighs 58grams and has a diameter of 25mm. This one differs from the first one because the first one most likely has just one single piece of stone while the third has multiple smaller stones and woould have acted like shot. A X-ray of some sort could show more evidence.


The fourth piece was found near Deventer, TheNetherlands near the river Ijsel.
It weighs 61 grams and has a 24mm diameter.
Attached Images
    
Marcus den toom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th September 2015, 06:07 PM   #34
Andi
Member
 
Andi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Halstenbek, Germany
Posts: 202
Default

Congratulations Marcus!
I also planned to reconstruct such type of ammunition but I am still not sure how to do it.... Are the pebbles cast into the lead or is the lead folded over the stones?
Andi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th September 2015, 06:21 PM   #35
Marcus den toom
Member
 
Marcus den toom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 493
Default

Hi Andi, thank you i am quit happy with them as well

The surface is mostly smooth with no overlapping lead, so i would say they where integrally cast. They probably selected stones or pieces of stone that would fit within a mould and put those pieces in the mould before pouring the lead in.

There are also a couple of lead balls with an iron core, made in what i supose is the same way. The pieces of metal are not al round, but seem to have corners apart from the heavy oxidation.
Attached Images
     
Marcus den toom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th September 2015, 08:09 PM   #36
Andi
Member
 
Andi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Halstenbek, Germany
Posts: 202
Default

Dear Marcus

Thanks for your reply. That sounds logically to me, good to get it confirmed
Andi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th September 2015, 08:14 PM   #37
batjka
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 39
Default

Looking at the Matchlock's drawing on the top of page 1, the left man has a bore-diameter rod with a thin extension that he stuck through the hole in the projectile.

Matchlock's theory was that the holes in the shot were used to transmit the ignition to the superimposed loads in the barrel. But since you clearly see numerous touch holes in the barrel, it just doesn't make sense. There would be gases escaping from these holes, reducing the pressure and velocity. If Matchlock's theory concerning the center holes in the projectiles was to be believed, the barrel would have had to be solid without any touch holes.

I want to propose another theory - the holes in the shot were used to measure the distance between projectiles to ensure that the powder charges properly line up with the touch holes. That is why the man on the left has a "measuring probe" inserted through the center hole in the clot shot.


I would love to have discussed it with Michael, but unfortunately it is not to be. Hopefully he will get the proper explanation from the real gunners depicted in the drawing up there.

RIP.
batjka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th September 2015, 07:53 AM   #38
Marcus den toom
Member
 
Marcus den toom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 493
Default

Hi Batjka,

We all are shocked by the loss of our dear friend Michael, the knowledge he provided was always of high quality and insight.

I think you have mixed up his explanation on post 1 and 22. Post one depicts a tillered handgun with multiple touch holes and thus the need for igniting every single shot seperatly.

Post 22 depicts a tillered handgun where there is no touch hole. The shots are fired by igniting the first load on top which travels trough the pieces of clodshot (lead bar shot) and thus firing in rapid succesion all of the inserted pieces.

I hope this explains Michael his posts a bit more.
Marcus den toom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th September 2015, 02:22 PM   #39
batjka
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 39
Default

I was referring to Matchlock's post #10 that in turn refers to the depiction in the post #1.

Post #22 talks about a different depiction which corresponds to the theory he had described.

Still, a question remains, how were the gunners able to load the superimposed loads as to ensure that the touch holes line up with the powder charges. One version is that they had used a ramrod with markings that indicate where each projectile must end up in relation to the muzzle. I had offered another explanation, supported by the depiction in the post #1 - depth probe was inserted through the hole in the projectile and when it touched the front of the projectile below, that's when the gunner knew it's all in the proper position. This makes a lot more sense than to try to tap it from the front, where an accidental extra hit could throw the whole sequence off. The left man on the photo in the post #1 clearly has this "probe" inserted through the projectile ready to load it into the barrel.
batjka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st September 2015, 06:53 AM   #40
Marcus den toom
Member
 
Marcus den toom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 493
Default

Hi Batjka,

In my previous post i forgot to mention that eventhough the gun in post 1 has more than one touch hole, this would not always mean that every shot where to be ignited seperately. This would not make sense either because we can clearly see the holes in the clodshot. Combined with the knowledge that early gunpowder was indeed fine dust like powder, it is to be expected that the holes filled up automatically when the next load was put in. This makes a chain reaction from the top possible.

As to how the pieces where inserted, i still believe they had to be hammered in to some extend. Medieval barrels where far from smooth and if such a piece of clodshot would just slide in the gas loss would have been enormous.
And maybe they did use some sort of measurment stick to determine if the powder plus shot was fitting in between the two touch holes.

Within this theory it is possible to shoot 1 or 2 or up to 5 shots (post 1 illustration). I don't know of any gun that has multiple touch holes like this, nor of a loaded gun with more than 1 piece of clodshot. Michl had a tillered hand cannon which held 1 shot and a large load of powder. Other than that there are few examples of surviving loaded hand cannons, at least not known to me .

Last edited by Marcus den toom; 21st September 2015 at 06:35 PM.
Marcus den toom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th October 2015, 11:17 AM   #41
Marcus den toom
Member
 
Marcus den toom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 493
Default

Kufstein clodshot

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...558#post190558
Marcus den toom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st August 2016, 05:19 PM   #42
Marcus den toom
Member
 
Marcus den toom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 493
Default

Reviving this thread with this 7cm piece of clodshot. Lead with a stone cast together.
Found at the North sea near Northumberland.
Attached Images
    
Marcus den toom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st August 2016, 07:49 PM   #43
Andi
Member
 
Andi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Halstenbek, Germany
Posts: 202
Default

Cool - is it yours?
Andi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st August 2016, 08:21 PM   #44
Marcus den toom
Member
 
Marcus den toom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 493
Default

Yes it is, just like this 4cm one from the same source.
Attached Images
    
Marcus den toom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st August 2016, 10:18 PM   #45
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,606
Default

You've got too many of those .
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th February 2018, 01:51 PM   #46
Marcus den toom
Member
 
Marcus den toom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 493
Default

And even more now
Bought these recently and they are the rare clodshot Michael spoke about. Also a iron core like the one Michael showed us before.

The lead seems to be wrapped around at least one of the balls, but these might just be "scars" in the lead.
The iron cores have been hammered, i think the edges where not broken of but completly hammered this way.
Attached Images
     
Marcus den toom is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:49 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.