Peshkabz triplet

GuyM · 30th March 2008, 08:08 PM

Hello all,

your thoughts and comments on this Peshkabz triplet would be most appreciated!

For my part, I see them as mostly decorative pieces, even though the big one has solid and well made blade and would clearly be serviceable. No wootz, no damascus, just plain steel, except on the medium one where some sort of etching has been performed to make it look like wootz (last photo).

Other opinions?

Thanks!

ward · 30th March 2008, 08:34 PM

late 20th century tourist

Battara · 30th March 2008, 08:46 PM

With wax resist fake wootz......

A. G. Maisey · 30th March 2008, 10:51 PM

Colonial India, 1880-1930's.

Supposedly made for sale to the British.

ward · 30th March 2008, 11:02 PM

try 1970-2008

A. G. Maisey · 31st March 2008, 02:19 AM

Ward, I have had knives of this type in my possession since I started collecting in the 1950's.

I have one now that my grandfather gave to me when I was 14 years old, that was in 1955. He reckoned that he had acquired it in about 1920, in India. It needs repair, it is missing the greenstone pommel pieces, and is in the form of a small khukrie. See the attached image.

I base my estimate of age of this type of thing on the above and on descriptions in the catalogues of British dealers prior to about 1978.

In respect of these three knives, I will bow to your greater wisdom, perhaps you know something about these particular three knives that I do not. However, my estimate for this type of knife stands.

ward · 31st March 2008, 02:50 AM

No offence meant. I have handled some of these over the years usually they are mass produced or close to it. I am always interested in learning that a item was earlier made from a reliable source such as yourself. I believe they were still being made untill a much later date, but I will extend my date back to the early 1900's. Thanks

A. G. Maisey · 31st March 2008, 04:04 AM

No offence taken Ward.

It can be easy to be misled about origins and dates with minor ethnographic items, unless one has some sort of personal experience.

I think "mass produced" is probably the wrong term to use. They do have very similar features, and they are always easily identified, but even with ones of the same pattern you find differences in dimensions and detail. I suspect they were probably a cottage industry type of thing, where patterns were the same, materials were produced en masse, and then individual craftsmen assembled them.One thing is certain:- they are handmade, not the product of any machine process.

Berkley · 31st March 2008, 04:29 AM

Some collectors have attributed the style to the earlier part of the 20th century; others posit an even earlier period. The 1920s through the 30s saw the spread of the Art Deco movement, elements of which appear in the handle design. Google "Art Deco India" and you will find numerous references to the "Indo-Art-Deco" style, including the Maharaja of Jodhpur's Umaid Bhawan palace, now a hotel. These were intended for a tourist market, no doubt, but early Indian "tourists" were primarily British officers who travelled for reasons other than pleasure.
This same handle style is found on new knives listed on eBay and elsewhere, so dating individual pieces can not be formulaic. The faux wootz blade above appears recently made, while the larger double fullered one could easily date at least to the period before WWII.

BerberDagger · 31st March 2008, 07:16 AM

Hi
I think that it is not tourist becouse it has a good blade... I think it is a 1950 -1970 dagger ...not much old but genuine.

CharlesS · 31st March 2008, 12:21 PM

Were the hilt all(100%) jadeite I would say late 1800s-early 1900s, and very much made for the British "den market"....not at all a bad dagger just not the upper crust of what the Indians were capable of.

The ones with the white hilt center and contrasting lines I do believe are later than those mentioned above, but exactly how late I am not sure.

A. G. Maisey · 31st March 2008, 12:26 PM

As noted, mine dates from about 1920.

GuyM · 31st March 2008, 08:42 PM

Wonderfully detailed answers as always, thanks to all.

I do/did not expect them to be very old but judging from the patina (I do have an advantage, I can have a first-hand look at them) and the state of the leather on the scabbard, their age must surely be counted in decades, so late 20th seems unlikely to me, probably more like mid 20th.

Again, lots of thanks!

30th March 2008, 08:08 PM	#1
GuyM Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 18	Peshkabz triplet Hello all, your thoughts and comments on this Peshkabz triplet would be most appreciated! For my part, I see them as mostly decorative pieces, even though the big one has solid and well made blade and would clearly be serviceable. No wootz, no damascus, just plain steel, except on the medium one where some sort of etching has been performed to make it look like wootz (last photo). Other opinions? Thanks! Attached Images

31st March 2008, 02:19 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,712	Ward, I have had knives of this type in my possession since I started collecting in the 1950's. I have one now that my grandfather gave to me when I was 14 years old, that was in 1955. He reckoned that he had acquired it in about 1920, in India. It needs repair, it is missing the greenstone pommel pieces, and is in the form of a small khukrie. See the attached image. I base my estimate of age of this type of thing on the above and on descriptions in the catalogues of British dealers prior to about 1978. In respect of these three knives, I will bow to your greater wisdom, perhaps you know something about these particular three knives that I do not. However, my estimate for this type of knife stands. Attached Images

30th March 2008, 08:34 PM	#2
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	late 20th century tourist

30th March 2008, 08:46 PM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	With wax resist fake wootz......

30th March 2008, 10:51 PM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,712	Colonial India, 1880-1930's. Supposedly made for sale to the British.

30th March 2008, 11:02 PM	#5
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	try 1970-2008

31st March 2008, 02:50 AM	#7
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	No offence meant. I have handled some of these over the years usually they are mass produced or close to it. I am always interested in learning that a item was earlier made from a reliable source such as yourself. I believe they were still being made untill a much later date, but I will extend my date back to the early 1900's. Thanks

31st March 2008, 04:04 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,712	No offence taken Ward. It can be easy to be misled about origins and dates with minor ethnographic items, unless one has some sort of personal experience. I think "mass produced" is probably the wrong term to use. They do have very similar features, and they are always easily identified, but even with ones of the same pattern you find differences in dimensions and detail. I suspect they were probably a cottage industry type of thing, where patterns were the same, materials were produced en masse, and then individual craftsmen assembled them.One thing is certain:- they are handmade, not the product of any machine process.

31st March 2008, 04:29 AM	#9
Berkley Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Austin, Texas USA Posts: 257	Some collectors have attributed the style to the earlier part of the 20th century; others posit an even earlier period. The 1920s through the 30s saw the spread of the Art Deco movement, elements of which appear in the handle design. Google "Art Deco India" and you will find numerous references to the "Indo-Art-Deco" style, including the Maharaja of Jodhpur's Umaid Bhawan palace, now a hotel. These were intended for a tourist market, no doubt, but early Indian "tourists" were primarily British officers who travelled for reasons other than pleasure. This same handle style is found on new knives listed on eBay and elsewhere, so dating individual pieces can not be formulaic. The faux wootz blade above appears recently made, while the larger double fullered one could easily date at least to the period before WWII.

31st March 2008, 07:16 AM	#10
BerberDagger Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 247	Hi I think that it is not tourist becouse it has a good blade... I think it is a 1950 -1970 dagger ...not much old but genuine.

31st March 2008, 12:21 PM	#11
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,855	Were the hilt all(100%) jadeite I would say late 1800s-early 1900s, and very much made for the British "den market"....not at all a bad dagger just not the upper crust of what the Indians were capable of. The ones with the white hilt center and contrasting lines I do believe are later than those mentioned above, but exactly how late I am not sure.

31st March 2008, 12:26 PM	#12
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,712	As noted, mine dates from about 1920.

31st March 2008, 08:42 PM	#13
GuyM Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 18	Wonderfully detailed answers as always, thanks to all. I do/did not expect them to be very old but judging from the patina (I do have an advantage, I can have a first-hand look at them) and the state of the leather on the scabbard, their age must surely be counted in decades, so late 20th seems unlikely to me, probably more like mid 20th. Again, lots of thanks!