Where are these two shields from?

TCole · 10th April 2016, 06:45 AM

I find so many of the literature is vague when it comes to the provenance or place of origin/manufacture of some of these Indian shields.

I have recently developed an interest in these things and I would be interested to hear what the community out there thinks of these.

Thanks in advance,
Tom

Jens Nordlunde · 10th April 2016, 04:22 PM

According to the Moser catalogue 1955 the shield to the right could, maybe, be Afghan. In the catalogue is shown a shield, not quite like yours, but still - it could be Afghan.

TCole · 10th April 2016, 11:02 PM

Jens Nordlunde - Your opinion that it might be Afghan based upon the Moser catalogue is based on … photographs of Afghan shields? or some of the text offered in that catalogue? If text.. can you quote it? And if based on photos, any chance to scan them and put it here in this thread?? Thanks.

Tom

iskender · 10th April 2016, 11:48 PM

good evening, the right shield is similar with one in my collection i think it is from north /india, now pakistan.. possibly from a muslim warrior. Iskender

TCole · 11th April 2016, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iskender

good evening, the right shield is similar with one in my collection i think it is from north /india, now pakistan.. possibly from a muslim warrior. Iskender

North Pakistan? Pashtun from the border area? Or…?

TCole · 11th April 2016, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iskender

good evening, the right shield is similar with one in my collection i think it is from north /india, now pakistan.. possibly from a muslim warrior. Iskender

And this one is metal, I was told.. not hide as it appears to be with the black lacquer

iskender · 11th April 2016, 04:18 AM

good evening ,the shield of mine is similar in the decoration as yours , from hammerd iron 250/300 years old or earlyer. the interesting detail is that the rim of the outer radius is folded and ironcut in a design and technique equal to the rims of the type indian armor / deccani full bodycuirasse / these plain bodyarmors from wootzsteel , horrible expensive when in a good condition.i dont now more in the moment , i will see what i find in the books. thanks iskender

Jens Nordlunde · 11th April 2016, 09:56 AM

Tom,
The shield is from: Orientalisches Sammlung Henri Moser-Charlottenfels, 1955 and the authors are Rudolf Zeller and Ernst F. Rohrer.

The shield attached is shown in the Afghan chapter, and the authors are very careful not to mention how old it is. They do, however, give some measurers.
Diameter 38.1 cm
Hight 7 cm
Thickness 1 mm
Weight 1.365 kg
The shield is made of iron with brass decorations.

colin henshaw · 11th April 2016, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Tom,
The shield is from: Orientalisches Sammlung Henri Moser-Charlottenfels, 1955 and the authors are Rudolf Zeller and Ernst F. Rohrer.

The shield attached is shown in the Afghan chapter, and the authors are very careful not to mention how old it is. They do, however, give some measurers.
Diameter 38.1 cm
Hight 7 cm
Thickness 1 mm
Weight 1.365 kg
The shield is made of iron with brass decorations.

This dhal I have, looks very similar to the one illustrated in this book...

iskender · 11th April 2016, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

Tom,
The shield is from: Orientalisches Sammlung Henri Moser-Charlottenfels, 1955 and the authors are Rudolf Zeller and Ernst F. Rohrer.

The shield attached is shown in the Afghan chapter, and the authors are very careful not to mention how old it is. They do, however, give some measurers.
Diameter 38.1 cm
Hight 7 cm
Thickness 1 mm
Weight 1.365 kg
The shield is made of iron with brass decorations.

good day , a similar shield like the H.R.Charlottenburg example in my collection , 35 cm diameter, has these crestcent decorations as this one. In the glossary of g.stone under "dahl " no place of origin is given.In the book "arms and armor from iran" there are two shields cat 373 and cat 376 with halfmoons pointing to a muslimstate in iran. this shield i would put in between the borders of the mugahl empire 1525 or 1605 hindu kush /punjab. as for the age it is hard to say .in the book of e.jaiwant paul there is also a moon declaird as the symbol of the Chandravanshi raiputs. best regards iskender

Jens Nordlunde · 11th April 2016, 03:14 PM

I dont know enough about shields to tell the age and from where they are.

It could have a Muslim origin, but there is also another possibility. It could origin from one of the lunar born clans, like Bhati, Chandelas, Chudasama, Jadauna, Jadeja, Katoch, Tomares and others.
The Bhati's did at one time rule in Sind, Punjab and even in Afghanistan.
A few pointers for further research.

TCole · 11th April 2016, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

I dont know enough about shields to tell the age and from where they are.

It could have a Muslim origin, but there is also another possibility. It could origin from one of the lunar born clans, like Bhati, Chandelas, Chudasama, Jadauna, Jadeja, Katoch, Tomares and others.
The Bhati's did at one time rule in Sind, Punjab and even in Afghanistan.
A few pointers for further research.

Surely the presence of the crescent moon is not an exclusive indicator of Muslim origin. The technique, the iconography/design seems to me would be more important to consider. The similarity of the shield from 1955 book and Colin's shield is striking. But none of these others have paint/lacquer like this, do they?

TCole · 11th April 2016, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jens Nordlunde

I dont know enough about shields to tell the age and from where they are.

It could have a Muslim origin, but there is also another possibility. It could origin from one of the lunar born clans, like Bhati, Chandelas, Chudasama, Jadauna, Jadeja, Katoch, Tomares and others.
The Bhati's did at one time rule in Sind, Punjab and even in Afghanistan.
A few pointers for further research.

Thank you very much. Guessing the other one to the left has no place of origin?

I am guessing the generic attribution of Benares might be used on this one?

This "Benares" attribution appears to be used on material that most agree is "late", ie. circa 1900 - 20? But surely enameled shields were made elsewhere at that time and before as well, given the skill of craftsmanship seen in weapons (daggers/sword hilts)? I'm curious.. just looking at photographs of material and trying to place it in terms of geography rather than a chronology with dates.

10th April 2016, 06:45 AM	#1
TCole Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 16	Where are these two shields from? I find so many of the literature is vague when it comes to the provenance or place of origin/manufacture of some of these Indian shields. I have recently developed an interest in these things and I would be interested to hear what the community out there thinks of these. Thanks in advance, Tom Attached Images

10th April 2016, 11:48 PM	#4
iskender Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 60	right shield good evening, the right shield is similar with one in my collection i think it is from north /india, now pakistan.. possibly from a muslim warrior. Iskender

11th April 2016, 04:18 AM	#7
iskender Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 60	metal good evening ,the shield of mine is similar in the decoration as yours , from hammerd iron 250/300 years old or earlyer. the interesting detail is that the rim of the outer radius is folded and ironcut in a design and technique equal to the rims of the type indian armor / deccani full bodycuirasse / these plain bodyarmors from wootzsteel , horrible expensive when in a good condition.i dont now more in the moment , i will see what i find in the books. thanks iskender

11th April 2016, 09:56 AM	#8
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	Tom, The shield is from: Orientalisches Sammlung Henri Moser-Charlottenfels, 1955 and the authors are Rudolf Zeller and Ernst F. Rohrer. The shield attached is shown in the Afghan chapter, and the authors are very careful not to mention how old it is. They do, however, give some measurers. Diameter 38.1 cm Hight 7 cm Thickness 1 mm Weight 1.365 kg The shield is made of iron with brass decorations. Attached Images

10th April 2016, 04:22 PM	#2
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	According to the Moser catalogue 1955 the shield to the right could, maybe, be Afghan. In the catalogue is shown a shield, not quite like yours, but still - it could be Afghan.

10th April 2016, 11:02 PM	#3
TCole Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 16	Jens Nordlunde - Your opinion that it might be Afghan based upon the Moser catalogue is based on … photographs of Afghan shields? or some of the text offered in that catalogue? If text.. can you quote it? And if based on photos, any chance to scan them and put it here in this thread?? Thanks. Tom

11th April 2016, 03:14 PM	#11
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	I dont know enough about shields to tell the age and from where they are. It could have a Muslim origin, but there is also another possibility. It could origin from one of the lunar born clans, like Bhati, Chandelas, Chudasama, Jadauna, Jadeja, Katoch, Tomares and others. The Bhati's did at one time rule in Sind, Punjab and even in Afghanistan. A few pointers for further research.