My first Koummya

taube · 21st January 2014, 09:55 AM

Gentlemen,

my first post and my first Koummya.

I am a collector of military antiques originally but those Koummyas caught me.
In the neighbourhood, I got this one for practically nothing.
It is hardly worth collecting regarding the blade but it serves its purpose as a studying object.
The seller said it was given to him as a present in Oman some 30 years ago.
My limited knowldege tells me it is a Moroccan style dagger.
At the same time it is not a classic Koummya.

What do you think?
What region is this style of decoration typical for?

Thanks in advance,
taube.

spiral · 21st January 2014, 09:46 PM

Later 20th century tourist piece... Atlas mountain area perhaps? copying older pieces.... That's why the blade isn't real...

Would look nice on a wall at a distance though....

Spiral

taube · 22nd January 2014, 08:29 AM

Thanks, Spiral.
What makes the blade "unreal"?
My thought was it´s just heavily used.
It is over 4mm thick on top and very stable.
Or is the whole manner of making that tells you it´s touristy?

Cheers,
taube.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 22nd January 2014, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taube

Gentlemen,

my first post and my first Koummya.

I am a collector of military antiques originally but those Koummyas caught me.
In the neighbourhood, I got this one for practically nothing.
It is hardly worth collecting regarding the blade but it serves its purpose as a studying object.
The seller said it was given to him as a present in Oman some 30 years ago.
My limited knowldege tells me it is a Moroccan style dagger.
At the same time it is not a classic Koummya.

What do you think?
What region is this style of decoration typical for?

Thanks in advance,
taube.

Salaams taube Welcome to the Forum! Ok good choice of weapon to start on... Koummya are an excellent start point and you will be amazed where the study takes you ... just type into Forum Search and also take it to web search ... Ok its a recent 20th C example however this will open the door to a really great study... I look forward to seeing how you progress with this great subject..ok? For a flying start see #53 just press on this link on http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...hlight=koummya
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

blue lander · 22nd January 2014, 03:22 PM

I think buying a tourist Koummya is a rite of passage for all new collectors.

There's so many on ebay. I posted a picture of my three, yours at least is much nicer and I assume older.

The lesson I learned from buying these is to pay more attention to the quality of the blade than the quality of the sheath and hilt. If it doesn't look like much effort was made into shaping and "finishing" the blade, then the blade was probably never meant to be seen. IE it's a wall hanger or decorative piece.

When it comes time to buy a real Koummya I'll probably go with a trusted seller rather than auction. There's just too many tourist models floating around.

spiral · 22nd January 2014, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taube

Thanks, Spiral.
What makes the blade "unreal"?
My thought was it´s just heavily used.
It is over 4mm thick on top and very stable.
Or is the whole manner of making that tells you it´s touristy?

Cheers,
taube.

I Have handled several very similar decorated late 20th century pieces,

All though in truth I don't the ones Ive seen had 4mm thick blades.

Is the blade tempered spring steel? ? or if bent stays bent? That's the most defining feature for real or not.

spiral

taube · 22nd January 2014, 05:36 PM

Thanks to you both!

Will put to the bending test as soon as I am at home, spiral.

Here is another one that came from the same source with the same story.
I dared not show it due to its condition earlier but I any can only learn.

Cheers,
taube.

taube · 23rd January 2014, 08:17 AM

Okay, you are right about the blade.
It is NOT spring steel but can be deformed permanently.
Good lesson, thanks again.

kai · 23rd January 2014, 08:39 AM

Welcome to the forum!

Actually, I do like the second one much more! Despite the obvious repairs it does show genuine wear and decent workmanship on the decorations.

The first one may be an old blade that got completely revamped in modern times?

Regards,
Kai

spiral · 23rd January 2014, 10:46 AM

mmmm that looks much nicer to me!

spiral

VANDOO · 23rd January 2014, 07:02 PM

THERE ARE DAGGERS AND SWORDS MADE JUST FOR TOURISTS THAT THE LOCALS WOULD NEVER USE MOSTLY BECAUSE THEY ARE OVER PRICED FOR WHAT THEY ARE AND INPRACTAL. SOME MAY FOLLOW TRADITIONAL FORMS AND SOME MAY TRY TO LOOK MORE EXPENSIVE FOR SHOW. MOST WOULD NOT HOLD UP FOR EVERY DAY USE BUT COULD SERVE FOR DRESS ONLY. SOME MAY BE ACCEPTABLE FOR LOCAL USE AND OFFERED AT A MUCH LOWER PRICE TO LOCALS THAN TO TOURISTS. THAT KIND OF HEDGES THE SELLERS BETS IN CASE NO TOURISTS SHOW UP.
THE DAGGERS MADE FOR USE BY LOCALS WOULD COME IN MANY DIFFERENT GRADES. SOME WOULD BE A GOOD BLADE WITH VERY PLAIN FITTINGS LIKE A KITCHEN KNIFE OTHERS MIGHT FOLLOW TRADITIONAL FORMS.
IN AFRICA THERE ARE MANY BLADES MADE OF SOFT METAL THAT WILL BEND BUT CAN BE STRAIGHTENED. THESE ARE CHEAP AND SOME PREFER THEM BECAUSE THEY ARE EASY TO SHARPEN AND WILL BEND NOT BREAK. THEY DO WEAR DOWN SOONER BUT ARE INEXPENSIVE AND EASY TO REPLACE.
THE FITTINGS MAY BE CHEAP BUT MADE TO LOOK EXPENSIVE TO THE ONE BUYING THEM. GLASS STONES AND SHINEY BRASS MAY LOOK AS GOOD AS JEWELS AND GOLD TO SOME LOCAL BUYERS AND BE AS CLOSE AS THEY WILL EVER GET.

REPAIRS MADE ON THE DAGGERS AND THE WORN DOWN BLADES SHOW LOCAL USE AND THOUGH REPAIRS ARE OFTEN POORLY DONE IN THE SOUKS FOR LITTLE MONEY THEY ARE AUTHENTIC AND TYPICAL FOR THE CULTURE.

spiral · 23rd January 2014, 07:26 PM

I agree with your generalisations Vandoo about soft steel in African weapons. tools & look alikes.

The Koumya although a dress item is a Mahgreb weapon of much dramatic history.. Same as a Mimcha. I am sure there are mild steel nimchas out there, but unless provenaced historicaly would seem poor examples to my way of thinking. But perhaps my viewpoint is just mine...

The good ones Ive seen from the 20s & 30s were spring steel.

To my The intial featured koumya is very modern & the spot solder work on the handle pieces is just as like to cut the hands or clothes of the wearer as the blade.

Spiral

VANDOO · 24th January 2014, 01:29 AM

I AGREE THERE ARE MANY GOOD KOUMMYA OUT THERE AND THEY ARE THE ONES WE LIKE TO COLLECT. I ALSO SUSPECT THERE MAY BE SOME OUT THERE THAT WE WOULD CONSIDER SUBSTANDARD AND OF VERY POOR QUALITY THAT MAY BE USED BY THOSE WHO CANNOT AFFORD A GOOD QUALITY ONE. THE FIRST ONE IN THIS POST IS OF POOR WORKMANSHIP BUT APPEARS GAUDY WITH FAKE STONES AND SHINEY BRASS. THE SECOND EXAMPLE IS OF BETTER WORKMANSHIP BUT THE REPAIRS WERE POORLY DONE.
I DON'T KNOW IF THE FIRST KOUMMYA IS JUST A GAUDY CHEAP ITEM INTENDED FOR TOURISTS ONLY OR IF THERE IS ANOTHER MARKET FOR SUCH ITEMS LOCALLY.

DIFFERENT TASTES THAN OUR OWN DO EXHIST I AM ONLY WONDERING IF THERE IS THE POSSIBILITY OF THESE ITEMS NOT BEING FOR TOURISTS ONLY. PERHAPS A MEMBER WHO HAS LIVED IN MOROCCO FOR A LONG TIME COULD ENLIGHTEN US.

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 24th January 2014, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VANDOO

I AGREE THERE ARE MANY GOOD KOUMMYA OUT THERE AND THEY ARE THE ONES WE LIKE TO COLLECT. I ALSO SUSPECT THERE MAY BE SOME OUT THERE THAT WE WOULD CONSIDER SUBSTANDARD AND OF VERY POOR QUALITY THAT MAY BE USED BY THOSE WHO CANNOT AFFORD A GOOD QUALITY ONE. THE FIRST ONE IN THIS POST IS OF POOR WORKMANSHIP BUT APPEARS GAUDY WITH FAKE STONES AND SHINEY BRASS. THE SECOND EXAMPLE IS OF BETTER WORKMANSHIP BUT THE REPAIRS WERE POORLY DONE.
I DON'T KNOW IF THE FIRST KOUMMYA IS JUST A GAUDY CHEAP ITEM INTENDED FOR TOURISTS ONLY OR IF THERE IS ANOTHER MARKET FOR SUCH ITEMS LOCALLY.

DIFFERENT TASTES THAN OUR OWN DO EXHIST I AM ONLY WONDERING IF THERE IS THE POSSIBILITY OF THESE ITEMS NOT BEING FOR TOURISTS ONLY. PERHAPS A MEMBER WHO HAS LIVED IN MOROCCO FOR A LONG TIME COULD ENLIGHTEN US.

Salaams Vandoo I think you have nailed it!... with one reservation ... Given that the items were obtained quite reasonably cheaply it is a good opportunity to advance the study in this particular weapon field for the owner. In that way it becomes an interesting break in.. to the amazing history of that weapon family. Thus even a basic more or less newish copy can take on a completely new face as the owner dives into new territory and unfolds the fascinating world of the Koummya.

I put it to Forum that it is not the "Wow thats nice" "Oooh luvly" or other cosmetic calls that drive our field of interest but the in depth look at the Ethnographics of such a weapon.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

colin henshaw · 24th January 2014, 04:07 PM

I don't collect these Moroccan daggers, but have seen a few and quite like them. The first dagger is of a recognised type from a specific area in Morocco (can't remember which). My feeling is it is not a tourist object, but just a budget example, now in rough condition, made for a poorer local person. Hence the use of the glass decorative elements (some missing) rather than silver, for example.

A nice start to a collection.

Regards.

spiral · 24th January 2014, 11:17 PM

Thanks for sharing your thoughts Vandoo...

It is an interesting question, that one finds in many ethnographic arms.

Personally I like the ones I keep to be in the definite, rather than the unsure category when it comes to usability.

I have a 1942 shybriya that was probably made for British army tourists... But its of true weapon quality. For me that is a defining point.

But yes that's just my taste in arms. For me they must be fully functional within my understanding. {which of course will reflect both my knowledge & my lack of it.}

Spiral

21st January 2014, 09:55 AM	#1
taube Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Posts: 45	My first Koummya Gentlemen, my first post and my first Koummya. I am a collector of military antiques originally but those Koummyas caught me. In the neighbourhood, I got this one for practically nothing. It is hardly worth collecting regarding the blade but it serves its purpose as a studying object. The seller said it was given to him as a present in Oman some 30 years ago. My limited knowldege tells me it is a Moroccan style dagger. At the same time it is not a classic Koummya. What do you think? What region is this style of decoration typical for? Thanks in advance, taube. Attached Images

22nd January 2014, 05:36 PM	#7
taube Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Posts: 45	Thanks to you both! Will put to the bending test as soon as I am at home, spiral. Here is another one that came from the same source with the same story. I dared not show it due to its condition earlier but I any can only learn. Cheers, taube. Attached Images

21st January 2014, 09:46 PM	#2
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Later 20th century tourist piece... Atlas mountain area perhaps? copying older pieces.... That's why the blade isn't real... Would look nice on a wall at a distance though.... Spiral

22nd January 2014, 08:29 AM	#3
taube Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Posts: 45	Thanks, Spiral. What makes the blade "unreal"? My thought was it´s just heavily used. It is over 4mm thick on top and very stable. Or is the whole manner of making that tells you it´s touristy? Cheers, taube.

22nd January 2014, 03:22 PM	#5
blue lander Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 456	I think buying a tourist Koummya is a rite of passage for all new collectors. There's so many on ebay. I posted a picture of my three, yours at least is much nicer and I assume older. The lesson I learned from buying these is to pay more attention to the quality of the blade than the quality of the sheath and hilt. If it doesn't look like much effort was made into shaping and "finishing" the blade, then the blade was probably never meant to be seen. IE it's a wall hanger or decorative piece. When it comes time to buy a real Koummya I'll probably go with a trusted seller rather than auction. There's just too many tourist models floating around. Attached Images

23rd January 2014, 08:17 AM	#8
taube Member Join Date: Jan 2014 Posts: 45	Okay, you are right about the blade. It is NOT spring steel but can be deformed permanently. Good lesson, thanks again.

23rd January 2014, 08:39 AM	#9
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,215	Welcome to the forum! Actually, I do like the second one much more! Despite the obvious repairs it does show genuine wear and decent workmanship on the decorations. The first one may be an old blade that got completely revamped in modern times? Regards, Kai

23rd January 2014, 10:46 AM	#10
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	mmmm that looks much nicer to me! spiral

23rd January 2014, 07:02 PM	#11
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THERE ARE DAGGERS AND SWORDS MADE JUST FOR TOURISTS THAT THE LOCALS WOULD NEVER USE MOSTLY BECAUSE THEY ARE OVER PRICED FOR WHAT THEY ARE AND INPRACTAL. SOME MAY FOLLOW TRADITIONAL FORMS AND SOME MAY TRY TO LOOK MORE EXPENSIVE FOR SHOW. MOST WOULD NOT HOLD UP FOR EVERY DAY USE BUT COULD SERVE FOR DRESS ONLY. SOME MAY BE ACCEPTABLE FOR LOCAL USE AND OFFERED AT A MUCH LOWER PRICE TO LOCALS THAN TO TOURISTS. THAT KIND OF HEDGES THE SELLERS BETS IN CASE NO TOURISTS SHOW UP. THE DAGGERS MADE FOR USE BY LOCALS WOULD COME IN MANY DIFFERENT GRADES. SOME WOULD BE A GOOD BLADE WITH VERY PLAIN FITTINGS LIKE A KITCHEN KNIFE OTHERS MIGHT FOLLOW TRADITIONAL FORMS. IN AFRICA THERE ARE MANY BLADES MADE OF SOFT METAL THAT WILL BEND BUT CAN BE STRAIGHTENED. THESE ARE CHEAP AND SOME PREFER THEM BECAUSE THEY ARE EASY TO SHARPEN AND WILL BEND NOT BREAK. THEY DO WEAR DOWN SOONER BUT ARE INEXPENSIVE AND EASY TO REPLACE. THE FITTINGS MAY BE CHEAP BUT MADE TO LOOK EXPENSIVE TO THE ONE BUYING THEM. GLASS STONES AND SHINEY BRASS MAY LOOK AS GOOD AS JEWELS AND GOLD TO SOME LOCAL BUYERS AND BE AS CLOSE AS THEY WILL EVER GET. REPAIRS MADE ON THE DAGGERS AND THE WORN DOWN BLADES SHOW LOCAL USE AND THOUGH REPAIRS ARE OFTEN POORLY DONE IN THE SOUKS FOR LITTLE MONEY THEY ARE AUTHENTIC AND TYPICAL FOR THE CULTURE.

23rd January 2014, 07:26 PM	#12
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	I agree with your generalisations Vandoo about soft steel in African weapons. tools & look alikes. The Koumya although a dress item is a Mahgreb weapon of much dramatic history.. Same as a Mimcha. I am sure there are mild steel nimchas out there, but unless provenaced historicaly would seem poor examples to my way of thinking. But perhaps my viewpoint is just mine... The good ones Ive seen from the 20s & 30s were spring steel. To my The intial featured koumya is very modern & the spot solder work on the handle pieces is just as like to cut the hands or clothes of the wearer as the blade. Spiral

24th January 2014, 01:29 AM	#13
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	I AGREE THERE ARE MANY GOOD KOUMMYA OUT THERE AND THEY ARE THE ONES WE LIKE TO COLLECT. I ALSO SUSPECT THERE MAY BE SOME OUT THERE THAT WE WOULD CONSIDER SUBSTANDARD AND OF VERY POOR QUALITY THAT MAY BE USED BY THOSE WHO CANNOT AFFORD A GOOD QUALITY ONE. THE FIRST ONE IN THIS POST IS OF POOR WORKMANSHIP BUT APPEARS GAUDY WITH FAKE STONES AND SHINEY BRASS. THE SECOND EXAMPLE IS OF BETTER WORKMANSHIP BUT THE REPAIRS WERE POORLY DONE. I DON'T KNOW IF THE FIRST KOUMMYA IS JUST A GAUDY CHEAP ITEM INTENDED FOR TOURISTS ONLY OR IF THERE IS ANOTHER MARKET FOR SUCH ITEMS LOCALLY. DIFFERENT TASTES THAN OUR OWN DO EXHIST I AM ONLY WONDERING IF THERE IS THE POSSIBILITY OF THESE ITEMS NOT BEING FOR TOURISTS ONLY. PERHAPS A MEMBER WHO HAS LIVED IN MOROCCO FOR A LONG TIME COULD ENLIGHTEN US.

24th January 2014, 04:07 PM	#15
colin henshaw Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1,430	I don't collect these Moroccan daggers, but have seen a few and quite like them. The first dagger is of a recognised type from a specific area in Morocco (can't remember which). My feeling is it is not a tourist object, but just a budget example, now in rough condition, made for a poorer local person. Hence the use of the glass decorative elements (some missing) rather than silver, for example. A nice start to a collection. Regards.

24th January 2014, 11:17 PM	#16
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Thanks for sharing your thoughts Vandoo... It is an interesting question, that one finds in many ethnographic arms. Personally I like the ones I keep to be in the definite, rather than the unsure category when it comes to usability. I have a 1942 shybriya that was probably made for British army tourists... But its of true weapon quality. For me that is a defining point. But yes that's just my taste in arms. For me they must be fully functional within my understanding. {which of course will reflect both my knowledge & my lack of it.} Spiral