Kirk Laddered Kard

archer · 7th January 2009, 11:23 PM

Hi, Any info or comments on this one? I was afraid that it might have been a recent manufacture but it appears to be older. Shagreen leather scabbard is surely old. I'm guessing that script is incorporated into the shields. Can anyone make out what they say?
Thank you,
Steve

Oh, How common are laddered wootz blades? I know from recent posts that zigzag and x patterns are very rare.

ariel · 7th January 2009, 11:42 PM

Very nice and definitely not a newly-made one.
The handle is unusually thick, almost karud-like. Central Asia?

archer · 8th January 2009, 02:41 AM

Ariel, I think that the large grips were to protect the koftgari designs between the hilt slabs. Only a fine lines remain, if at all on this one. So this one may have had slabs changed at some time. The only other rational for the large grips as with the bali keris hilts for show at court.

Regards,
Steve

ward · 8th January 2009, 02:55 AM

Ariel is right, bigger grips = Central Asia. Those guys were and are physically larger than most and larger grips give a better grip for a downward thrust.

G. McCormack · 8th January 2009, 05:50 AM

You guys have any similar examples with grips like this? Screams composite to me, maybe old composite, but nonetheless-

The grip-to-ricasso area just looks silly and I've got to think those thick grips are impractical. Horn looks to have age though, lovely blade....

ALEX · 8th January 2009, 09:31 AM

The grips are not unusual. Here're similarly shaped: http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=274
Agree with Ariel and Ward - Central Asian, perhaps Buharan or other ...stan countries. I have very similar dagger with large horn grips, and the hold is quite comfortable even for my small hands:-).
The blade is very nice indeed, Steve. The ladder pattern is rare on daggers, and yours is of good quality. My guess would be that the blade is older than the rest, and the chiseling is fairly recent, and not contemporary with the blade. Here is example of 18th century Persian chiseling, note the difference in quality.

archer · 9th January 2009, 04:14 PM

Thank you all for your insights and information. Alex your calligraphy flows and the difference is evident. Also the gold work on example look like inlays vs. Koftgari. Would you say the differences are do to eras or regional workmanship?
The photo showing cartouches was the second I've seen.

When I first saw this one I thought it very recent. Fervent searching Artzis' site,
help Me make up my mind to bid along with the sellers comment that the blade was damascus. Really glad I did now.
Thanks,
Steve

ALEX · 9th January 2009, 04:38 PM

Very good, Steve - you are right - it is True inlay, not koftgari.
I think the regional workmanship is not a true measure of quality. "Indo-Persia" covered such a vast region and the remarkable examples are seen throughout Buhara to India. But it is much harder to find bad quality chiselling on 17/18 Century items than on 19/20 Century ones:-) Generally speaking, less quality and cruder work is expected on relatively recent items, especially when it comes to Koranic scripts!
Very nice daggers you've shown.

7th January 2009, 11:23 PM	#1
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	Kirk Laddered Kard Hi, Any info or comments on this one? I was afraid that it might have been a recent manufacture but it appears to be older. Shagreen leather scabbard is surely old. I'm guessing that script is incorporated into the shields. Can anyone make out what they say? Thank you, Steve Oh, How common are laddered wootz blades? I know from recent posts that zigzag and x patterns are very rare. Attached Images Last edited by archer; 8th January 2009 at 12:59 AM.

8th January 2009, 02:41 AM	#3
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	Large handles Ariel, I think that the large grips were to protect the koftgari designs between the hilt slabs. Only a fine lines remain, if at all on this one. So this one may have had slabs changed at some time. The only other rational for the large grips as with the bali keris hilts for show at court. Regards, Steve

8th January 2009, 09:31 AM	#6
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 935	The grips are not unusual. Here're similarly shaped: http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos.php?id=274 Agree with Ariel and Ward - Central Asian, perhaps Buharan or other ...stan countries. I have very similar dagger with large horn grips, and the hold is quite comfortable even for my small hands:-). The blade is very nice indeed, Steve. The ladder pattern is rare on daggers, and yours is of good quality. My guess would be that the blade is older than the rest, and the chiseling is fairly recent, and not contemporary with the blade. Here is example of 18th century Persian chiseling, note the difference in quality. Attached Images

9th January 2009, 04:14 PM	#7
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	Followup Thank you all for your insights and information. Alex your calligraphy flows and the difference is evident. Also the gold work on example look like inlays vs. Koftgari. Would you say the differences are do to eras or regional workmanship? The photo showing cartouches was the second I've seen. When I first saw this one I thought it very recent. Fervent searching Artzis' site, help Me make up my mind to bid along with the sellers comment that the blade was damascus. Really glad I did now. Thanks, Steve Attached Images

7th January 2009, 11:42 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Very nice and definitely not a newly-made one. The handle is unusually thick, almost karud-like. Central Asia?

8th January 2009, 02:55 AM	#4
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	Ariel is right, bigger grips = Central Asia. Those guys were and are physically larger than most and larger grips give a better grip for a downward thrust.

8th January 2009, 05:50 AM	#5
G. McCormack Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 131	You guys have any similar examples with grips like this? Screams composite to me, maybe old composite, but nonetheless- The grip-to-ricasso area just looks silly and I've got to think those thick grips are impractical. Horn looks to have age though, lovely blade....

9th January 2009, 04:38 PM	#8
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 935	Very good, Steve - you are right - it is True inlay, not koftgari. I think the regional workmanship is not a true measure of quality. "Indo-Persia" covered such a vast region and the remarkable examples are seen throughout Buhara to India. But it is much harder to find bad quality chiselling on 17/18 Century items than on 19/20 Century ones:-) Generally speaking, less quality and cruder work is expected on relatively recent items, especially when it comes to Koranic scripts! Very nice daggers you've shown.