Old keris New Warangan

SidJ · 18th October 2022, 08:06 PM

Hello
Here is an old keris I picked up in Australia. It was in a neglected state as the pictures show. I cleaned it and then applied a traditional warangan in the old manner. I would be very grateful for your thoughts on this keris. I am told it has some age to it.
Many Thanks

SidJ · 18th October 2022, 08:07 PM

I should add for what it is worth that the mendak turned out to be gold on this one.

Anthony G. · 19th October 2022, 04:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SidJ

I should add for what it is worth that the mendak turned out to be gold on this one.

congrat!

A. G. Maisey · 19th October 2022, 04:46 AM

Not bad Sid, not bad at all.

You've done well.

Pajajaran I think.

SidJ · 19th October 2022, 08:24 PM

Thanks Alan. Does this equate to around the 1600s?

A. G. Maisey · 19th October 2022, 10:08 PM

Sid, when we are talking about older tangguh classifications we cannot adopt a time related frame of reference to fit with these classifications.

The Solonese initiated tangguh reference system was designed for a necessity that had nothing at all to do with the whims & desires of collectors and present day dealers. The present day market place has corrupted the tangguh system to something that I personally regard as having very little relevance to reality.

That said, if you are looking at age of this piece, I would place it as pre-1850 and from West Jawa. It could go back into the 1600's, but I do tend to be very conservative with age estimates, it is very easy to be wrong.

SidJ · 19th October 2022, 11:52 PM

Thanks Alan
This tangguh system is incredibly opaque. I am not at all clear if it helps or hinders a typical westerner to understand keris age. Thanks for advising on the age Im happy with around 1850. Fair bit of age to it which is great.

jagabuwana · 20th October 2022, 12:49 AM

Very nice SidJ. I find it near impossible to find keris, let alone good keris in Aus, aside from one obvious source which I will not name (but I think we all know it) so as to not violate this forums rules around commercials. So more luck to you!

I've only ever found two keris - both old and from antique shops. One Javanese shabby condition keris found in Katoomba in 2018 and the other an old Bali blade dressed in one of the famous Bali tourist styles, found this year in Bowral. I'll always pop into any antique shop I pass for a quick scan just incase. My odds aren't great but it makes a find all the more satisfying.

A. G. Maisey · 20th October 2022, 07:46 AM

Sid, the tangguh system is really not all that difficult to come to terms with if we just regard it as a system of classification.

For relatively recent classifications, such as Surakarta, we can use it as an approximate guide to age, but the further back in time we go, the less we can think of it in terms of age.

I feel that for Sultan Agung forward it is probably a more or less reliable way to get a ballpark approximation of age, but back before this I tend to regard it as a system that is more likely to indicate place of origin, rather than time of origin.

I'm using words like "tend" & "feel", this is because what I have written is a statement of my personal belief, which is probably as good as anybody else's personal belief.

Bear in mind that tangguh is a value indicator that is tied to perceived honour, it was never intended to satisfy the curiosity of collectors, it was intended to help Javanese noblemen with their investment decisions.

However --- at the present time it is used by many people who do not really understand it, to jack up prices. Koripan almost always becomes Mataram Sultan Agung, Tuban Majapahit gets presented as Majapahit, & so on.

Just stick with it as a classification system and you won't go far wrong.

A. G. Maisey · 20th October 2022, 07:52 AM

Jaga, things used to be better in Australia. I was able to buy a lot of keris in just the Sydney & suburbs in the 1950's & 1960's, often at auction.

Even as late as 1990 I was able to buy a collection of 17 keris that included two superb pieces, and all the others were old & good.

Last year at auction I bought a pretty decent old Bali keris with silver, ivory, gemstones, and kinatah blade.

You just need to continually look & then be prepared to take out a second mortgage if the occasion calls for it.

jagabuwana · 25th October 2022, 08:09 AM

Yeah the auctions seem to be where it's at now, but I always find out about them after the fact. I should note which ones have sold keris in the near past and sign up to a mailing list or something.
But yes, second mortgage is right. In this economy it might just be an exercise in window shopping.

18th October 2022, 08:06 PM	#1
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 174	Old keris New Warangan Hello Here is an old keris I picked up in Australia. It was in a neglected state as the pictures show. I cleaned it and then applied a traditional warangan in the old manner. I would be very grateful for your thoughts on this keris. I am told it has some age to it. Many Thanks Attached Images

18th October 2022, 08:07 PM	#2
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 174	I should add for what it is worth that the mendak turned out to be gold on this one.

19th October 2022, 04:46 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,701	Not bad Sid, not bad at all. You've done well. Pajajaran I think.

19th October 2022, 08:24 PM	#5
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 174	Thanks Alan. Does this equate to around the 1600s?

19th October 2022, 10:08 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,701	Sid, when we are talking about older tangguh classifications we cannot adopt a time related frame of reference to fit with these classifications. The Solonese initiated tangguh reference system was designed for a necessity that had nothing at all to do with the whims & desires of collectors and present day dealers. The present day market place has corrupted the tangguh system to something that I personally regard as having very little relevance to reality. That said, if you are looking at age of this piece, I would place it as pre-1850 and from West Jawa. It could go back into the 1600's, but I do tend to be very conservative with age estimates, it is very easy to be wrong.

19th October 2022, 11:52 PM	#7
SidJ Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 174	Thanks Alan This tangguh system is incredibly opaque. I am not at all clear if it helps or hinders a typical westerner to understand keris age. Thanks for advising on the age Im happy with around 1850. Fair bit of age to it which is great.

20th October 2022, 12:49 AM	#8
jagabuwana Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 276	Very nice SidJ. I find it near impossible to find keris, let alone good keris in Aus, aside from one obvious source which I will not name (but I think we all know it) so as to not violate this forums rules around commercials. So more luck to you! I've only ever found two keris - both old and from antique shops. One Javanese shabby condition keris found in Katoomba in 2018 and the other an old Bali blade dressed in one of the famous Bali tourist styles, found this year in Bowral. I'll always pop into any antique shop I pass for a quick scan just incase. My odds aren't great but it makes a find all the more satisfying.

20th October 2022, 07:46 AM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,701	Sid, the tangguh system is really not all that difficult to come to terms with if we just regard it as a system of classification. For relatively recent classifications, such as Surakarta, we can use it as an approximate guide to age, but the further back in time we go, the less we can think of it in terms of age. I feel that for Sultan Agung forward it is probably a more or less reliable way to get a ballpark approximation of age, but back before this I tend to regard it as a system that is more likely to indicate place of origin, rather than time of origin. I'm using words like "tend" & "feel", this is because what I have written is a statement of my personal belief, which is probably as good as anybody else's personal belief. Bear in mind that tangguh is a value indicator that is tied to perceived honour, it was never intended to satisfy the curiosity of collectors, it was intended to help Javanese noblemen with their investment decisions. However --- at the present time it is used by many people who do not really understand it, to jack up prices. Koripan almost always becomes Mataram Sultan Agung, Tuban Majapahit gets presented as Majapahit, & so on. Just stick with it as a classification system and you won't go far wrong.

20th October 2022, 07:52 AM	#10
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,701	Jaga, things used to be better in Australia. I was able to buy a lot of keris in just the Sydney & suburbs in the 1950's & 1960's, often at auction. Even as late as 1990 I was able to buy a collection of 17 keris that included two superb pieces, and all the others were old & good. Last year at auction I bought a pretty decent old Bali keris with silver, ivory, gemstones, and kinatah blade. You just need to continually look & then be prepared to take out a second mortgage if the occasion calls for it.

25th October 2022, 08:09 AM	#11
jagabuwana Member Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 276	Yeah the auctions seem to be where it's at now, but I always find out about them after the fact. I should note which ones have sold keris in the near past and sign up to a mailing list or something. But yes, second mortgage is right. In this economy it might just be an exercise in window shopping.