Scissors Katar

Iliad · 6th March 2012, 08:49 PM

Hi all,
Herewith pics of a scissors katar which I have recently acquired. It is in poor condition and I am not expecting complimentary comment about it, but the issue which I am raising is not about this particular katar but about scissor katars in general.What is the purpose of such katars? If used to stab with the blades closed, then the blades cannot be opened while inside the body of the victim; if stabbing while the blades are open, then surely quite ineffective. Is it a parrying dagger? If so, then how effective?
Regards to all,
Brian

Stan S. · 6th March 2012, 09:21 PM

Hi Brian,

Compliments on your new aquisition. The question of scissor katars had been discussed on this and other forums in length. General consensus points at these not being designed for fighting. However, it is possible the original prototype was intended as a sword catcher of sorts. I have never seen one of the functional examples but perhaps someone else had?

While a scissor katar looks like it has 3 blades. 2 of which are spring loaded like a switchback knife, in reality (and as evident from your example), pivoting “blades” are just a type of a steel scabbard. They are not designed for cutting/thrusting and would greatly interfere with the functionality of the center blade if someone chose to use the weapon for its intended purpose. Besides, the central blade on most examples is made of some low quality alloy, which is sometimes etched to resemble wootz steel.

With this being said, scissor katars are still manufactured in India for the tourist trade. And they originally came to be in the late 19th century to serve the same niche market, which at the time was mostly British military men stationed in India or wealthy westerners visiting the country and wanting an “authentic” souvenir. Your katar appears to be just that: it is clearly not newly made and is probably around 75-125 years old.

Is the spring mechanism still functional in your katar? Its actually not in that bad of a condition for it’s age and should clean up nicely.

Iliad · 6th March 2012, 10:33 PM

Hi Stan,
Thank you for the prompt reply. Yes, the spring mechanism still works, but not well. Even though in poor condition, I am pleased to have it, as we don't see too many of these here at the bottom of the world!
Best,
Brian

Stan S. · 6th March 2012, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iliad

Hi Stan,
Thank you for the prompt reply. Yes, the spring mechanism still works, but not well. Even though in poor condition, I am pleased to have it, as we don't see too many of these here at the bottom of the world!
Best,
Brian

You may want to lubrcate the spring. If you are able to get teh action from squeezing the bards, teh spring is still there but probably quite oxidised.

Also, don't be discouraged by this not being a real battle weapon. It is still a very nice and somewhat rare item, and makes a great addition to any collection.

Jens Nordlunde · 9th March 2012, 02:39 PM

In the book Damascene Work in India the author, Surgeon-Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Holbein Hendley in 1892 wrote. “Sometimes the blade is made to open when the central bars are pressed, as to make the wound which is inflicted more horrible”.

Considering Hendley's job as a military surgeon, I think we can take his word for the kind of wound such a katar could make.

Stan S. · 10th March 2012, 04:27 AM

Jens, sadly I am not familiar with Dr. Hendley's work. However being a surgeon to the British army does not necessarily entail fixing wounds on anyone other than British soldiers. And unless there is a record of him specifically treating injuries that resulted from a scissor katar, his commentary on the use of this weapon is a hearsay, however educated it may be.

With this being said, I don't doubt that the not-so-commonly encountered examples of scissor katar such as the one posted here are based on a fully functional weapon designed to inflict "horrible wounds" or act as a sword catcher. Without a doubt this would require a stronger spring and a blade arrangement actually cosisting of 3 blades that slide one behind the other like blades of a scissor (rather than a single blade and two halves of a "shell"). In my years of collecting and researching Indian weapons I am yet to encounter one. If anyone had seen it, or even better, has it in their coleection, I would love to hear about it or see some pictures.

Jim McDougall · 10th March 2012, 07:07 AM

This is a truly interesting type of Indian weapon which well illustrates the innovative skills of the Indian armourers, however I remain skeptical on the practicality of these as suggested by Holbein. Despite his extremely valued observations and outstanding work in the study of these arms, it was very much a common presumption in evaluating these unusual features.

This has been an occurrence on a number of weapons features such as a long and inconclusive study I did on deliberately placed notches in the blade back near tip on Austrian cavalry swords. It was claimed by Eduard Wagner ("Cut and Thrust Weapons",Prague, 1967) that these notches were placed in the blades to 'worsen the wounds'. Curiously, the feature existed on some sabres in the same place near the tip*...how could this 'worsen' a slashing wound? though its use on the straight pallasches seems understandable.
Similar dynamics were presumed during WWI with the frightening looking sawback bayonets. It was presumed that these were intended to produce horrible wounds, however in reality they were for utility use and to thrust with one it would become instantly imbedded in the victim, hardly a worthwhile situation for its user. Still, the propoganda oriented myth caused notable reaction with the forces and German soldiers caught with these were dealt with severely.

In my lay understanding of physiology pertaining to use of weapons, it is my perception that in most cases depending on area of penetration, to expand these blades within (unless extremely powerful spring)would be largely improbable. There is also again, the case of the user becoming immediately disarmed as the dagger would be of course irretractably lodged in the body.
My next question would ask what would be the purpose of heightening what would already be a mortal wound. The same with the 'toothed blades', the thrust in most cases was already lethal and the only outcome with this feature would be the impairment of withdrawal of the weapon.

In Richard Burton (1885, p.136) a German 'main gauche' (left hand dagger) is shown with three blades expanding by spring when button pressed and forming a guard of great breadth with which to catch the opponents blade.
These of course were known in many instances in Europe, and as far as I am aware were primarily intended as sword catchers.

It seems that these innovative European 'novelties' may have caught the attention of Indian armourers during the colonizations, and interpretations of these fashioned to impress wealthy and courtly connected patrons.

It would be interesting, despite these observations, to hear more on what potential there would be for the perceived use described by Dr. Holbein.
These type daggers, both Indian and in the case of European, have been the subject for considerable debate and contention, even with Egerton Castle (1885) the fencing authority, who questions the use of left hand daggers and 'sword breakers' in any degree as commonly held.

* this of course would be excepted in the case of the high tierce thrust with sabre when 'giving point'.

Shimmerxxx · 11th July 2012, 05:33 PM

I saw one of these in a rather posh antiques shop in London today. The spring mechanism was only partially functional and the dealer was still asking nearly £1,500 for it.

The look on his face when I nearly dropped it was priceless.

I did wonder about its function, so this thread was very interesting, thanks.

VANDOO · 11th July 2012, 10:17 PM

THE ORIGINAL ONE OF THESE WAS MADE IN THE 1700'S IN INDIA WHERE IT WAS USED BY A VENTRILOQUIST IN AN ACT CALLED THE TALKING KATAR.

I THOUGHT IT WAS TIME FOR A NEW LEGEND ABOUT THESE.

THE ONLY THING I SEE ONITTED SO FAR IS THE STORY THAT THE HIDDEN BLADE WAS POISONED AND THE OUTER BLADE PROTECTED THE WEARER. THEY ARE INTERESTING AND NOT COMMONLY FOUND.

Jim McDougall · 13th July 2012, 01:27 AM

Welcome to the forum Shimmerxxx! and thank you for reviving this old thread with your interesting entry.....its amazing what some dealers come up with!!!
Good one Barry on the poisoned blade. Never could follow that concept, a thrust seems to be adequately fatal.......actually never heard of anybody sterilizing blades either....infection didnt need poison.

6th March 2012, 08:49 PM	#1
Iliad Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 187	Scissors Katar Hi all, Herewith pics of a scissors katar which I have recently acquired. It is in poor condition and I am not expecting complimentary comment about it, but the issue which I am raising is not about this particular katar but about scissor katars in general.What is the purpose of such katars? If used to stab with the blades closed, then the blades cannot be opened while inside the body of the victim; if stabbing while the blades are open, then surely quite ineffective. Is it a parrying dagger? If so, then how effective? Regards to all, Brian Attached Images

11th July 2012, 05:33 PM	#8
Shimmerxxx Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Wickford, UK Posts: 54	I saw one of these in a rather posh antiques shop in London today. The spring mechanism was only partially functional and the dealer was still asking nearly £1,500 for it. The look on his face when I nearly dropped it was priceless. I did wonder about its function, so this thread was very interesting, thanks. Attached Images

6th March 2012, 09:21 PM	#2
Stan S. Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Brooklyn, NY USA Posts: 227	Hi Brian, Compliments on your new aquisition. The question of scissor katars had been discussed on this and other forums in length. General consensus points at these not being designed for fighting. However, it is possible the original prototype was intended as a sword catcher of sorts. I have never seen one of the functional examples but perhaps someone else had? While a scissor katar looks like it has 3 blades. 2 of which are spring loaded like a switchback knife, in reality (and as evident from your example), pivoting “blades” are just a type of a steel scabbard. They are not designed for cutting/thrusting and would greatly interfere with the functionality of the center blade if someone chose to use the weapon for its intended purpose. Besides, the central blade on most examples is made of some low quality alloy, which is sometimes etched to resemble wootz steel. With this being said, scissor katars are still manufactured in India for the tourist trade. And they originally came to be in the late 19th century to serve the same niche market, which at the time was mostly British military men stationed in India or wealthy westerners visiting the country and wanting an “authentic” souvenir. Your katar appears to be just that: it is clearly not newly made and is probably around 75-125 years old. Is the spring mechanism still functional in your katar? Its actually not in that bad of a condition for it’s age and should clean up nicely.

6th March 2012, 10:33 PM	#3
Iliad Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 187	Hi Stan, Thank you for the prompt reply. Yes, the spring mechanism still works, but not well. Even though in poor condition, I am pleased to have it, as we don't see too many of these here at the bottom of the world! Best, Brian

9th March 2012, 02:39 PM	#5
Jens Nordlunde Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Europe Posts: 2,713	In the book Damascene Work in India the author, Surgeon-Lieut.-Colonel Thomas Holbein Hendley in 1892 wrote. “Sometimes the blade is made to open when the central bars are pressed, as to make the wound which is inflicted more horrible”. Considering Hendley's job as a military surgeon, I think we can take his word for the kind of wound such a katar could make.

10th March 2012, 04:27 AM	#6
Stan S. Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Brooklyn, NY USA Posts: 227	Jens, sadly I am not familiar with Dr. Hendley's work. However being a surgeon to the British army does not necessarily entail fixing wounds on anyone other than British soldiers. And unless there is a record of him specifically treating injuries that resulted from a scissor katar, his commentary on the use of this weapon is a hearsay, however educated it may be. With this being said, I don't doubt that the not-so-commonly encountered examples of scissor katar such as the one posted here are based on a fully functional weapon designed to inflict "horrible wounds" or act as a sword catcher. Without a doubt this would require a stronger spring and a blade arrangement actually cosisting of 3 blades that slide one behind the other like blades of a scissor (rather than a single blade and two halves of a "shell"). In my years of collecting and researching Indian weapons I am yet to encounter one. If anyone had seen it, or even better, has it in their coleection, I would love to hear about it or see some pictures.

10th March 2012, 07:07 AM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	This is a truly interesting type of Indian weapon which well illustrates the innovative skills of the Indian armourers, however I remain skeptical on the practicality of these as suggested by Holbein. Despite his extremely valued observations and outstanding work in the study of these arms, it was very much a common presumption in evaluating these unusual features. This has been an occurrence on a number of weapons features such as a long and inconclusive study I did on deliberately placed notches in the blade back near tip on Austrian cavalry swords. It was claimed by Eduard Wagner ("Cut and Thrust Weapons",Prague, 1967) that these notches were placed in the blades to 'worsen the wounds'. Curiously, the feature existed on some sabres in the same place near the tip...how could this 'worsen' a slashing wound? though its use on the straight pallasches seems understandable. Similar dynamics were presumed during WWI with the frightening looking sawback bayonets. It was presumed that these were intended to produce horrible wounds, however in reality they were for utility use and to thrust with one it would become instantly imbedded in the victim, hardly a worthwhile situation for its user. Still, the propoganda oriented myth caused notable reaction with the forces and German soldiers caught with these were dealt with severely. In my lay understanding of physiology pertaining to use of weapons, it is my perception that in most cases depending on area of penetration, to expand these blades within (unless extremely powerful spring)would be largely improbable. There is also again, the case of the user becoming immediately disarmed as the dagger would be of course irretractably lodged in the body. My next question would ask what would be the purpose of heightening what would already be a mortal wound. The same with the 'toothed blades', the thrust in most cases was already lethal and the only outcome with this feature would be the impairment of withdrawal of the weapon. In Richard Burton (1885, p.136) a German 'main gauche' (left hand dagger) is shown with three blades expanding by spring when button pressed and forming a guard of great breadth with which to catch the opponents blade. These of course were known in many instances in Europe, and as far as I am aware were primarily intended as sword catchers. It seems that these innovative European 'novelties' may have caught the attention of Indian armourers during the colonizations, and interpretations of these fashioned to impress wealthy and courtly connected patrons. It would be interesting, despite these observations, to hear more on what potential there would be for the perceived use described by Dr. Holbein. These type daggers, both Indian and in the case of European, have been the subject for considerable debate and contention, even with Egerton Castle (1885) the fencing authority, who questions the use of left hand daggers and 'sword breakers' in any degree as commonly held. this of course would be excepted in the case of the high tierce thrust with sabre when 'giving point'.

11th July 2012, 10:17 PM	#9
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE ORIGINAL ONE OF THESE WAS MADE IN THE 1700'S IN INDIA WHERE IT WAS USED BY A VENTRILOQUIST IN AN ACT CALLED THE TALKING KATAR. I THOUGHT IT WAS TIME FOR A NEW LEGEND ABOUT THESE. THE ONLY THING I SEE ONITTED SO FAR IS THE STORY THAT THE HIDDEN BLADE WAS POISONED AND THE OUTER BLADE PROTECTED THE WEARER. THEY ARE INTERESTING AND NOT COMMONLY FOUND.

13th July 2012, 01:27 AM	#10
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,738	Welcome to the forum Shimmerxxx! and thank you for reviving this old thread with your interesting entry.....its amazing what some dealers come up with!!! Good one Barry on the poisoned blade. Never could follow that concept, a thrust seems to be adequately fatal.......actually never heard of anybody sterilizing blades either....infection didnt need poison.