Moro? Malay? Kris/Sundang

Tatyana Dianova · 27th May 2011, 09:22 PM

This is my first Kris. No scabbard, horn handle (most probably later, marked with B66 and anchor), but I loved the blade

I am still not 100% sure if it has a separate Ganja or not. But the tang (rectangular) was definitely repaired. A thick and massive laminated blade. Ganja thickness (from top): 1.3 cm, blade length: 55 cm. Can somebody help with identification of origin and maybe age?

ThePepperSkull · 28th May 2011, 01:15 AM

I, too, would like to know the exact date of this piece.

I know that it's sulu and from my approximations it may be from the 1800's? Perhaps mid 1800's but someone like kai or Battara would know better than I.

The handle, like you suggest, is a new addition I think. Also the orientation of the gangya has been modified. Gangya typically have an upward cant. Originally it must have looked something like this:

Battara · 28th May 2011, 01:46 AM

I would say that it may be early to mid 1800s. The ganga is separate and curves versus being angled which I have seen on older ones. I would also say that it is from the Sulu region in origin. Nice fuller work.

Shame about the hilt.

Try etching the blade and see what comes out.

kai · 28th May 2011, 02:37 AM

Hello Tatyana,

Congrats, neat first kalis! I do like the blade, too...

I think you should toss that replacement hilt; doesn't suit this nice kris blade at all (looks like Luzon work to me). Antique hilts are very tough to come by - I bet Jose has already a nice hilt design for this piece in his mind though...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Try etching the blade and see what comes out.

Definitely (after gentle cleaning; much easier to work on a bare blade). I don't see any evidence for twistcore but IMHO the blade/laminations should be brought back to life, anyway!

Regards,
Kai

ThePepperSkull · 28th May 2011, 07:59 AM

I wonder why the gangya was straightened. It's an interesting (and strange) modification to me and makes me wonder about the piece as a whole. The hilt work, the number and the symbol. Could this have been acquired by western hands and replaired and modified to suit personal preference? if so, why straighten the gangya? Perhaps to facilitate handling somehow?

I think it's an interesting piece as-is, but I definitely respect the notion of restoring this and ultimately understand the reasoning behind wanting to do so. As would I respect and fully support the decision to go through with such a restorarion to make it more culturally appropriate in terms of hilt dress. (Speaking of... Jose or Kai, if this kind of Sulu kris were to have a sheath, what would its 'boat'/mouth area/top area look like? I have seen three other pieces like this, one of which I own, but none with sheathes to go with it)

The work does not look like typical luzon to me, but to play devil's advocate to my own argument, when has luzon hilt work ever been 'typical'? Luzon blade and hilt work is probably some of the most diverse in terms of not keeping a strict design form so it very well could be a Luzon rehilt and I, as the saying goes, could have egg on my face for presuming it is not.

Something about this piece is just strange to me. the material of the hilt points to Luzon, but whenever I see a rehilted kris in Luzon dress, the gangya is removed. In some cases, the elephant mouth is filed off as well.

As an example, here is a Luzon-hilted kris with a very similar recycled moro blade:

Sajen · 28th May 2011, 05:07 PM

Hello Tatyana,

agree with the others, nice find and good blade.

I am still working at my archaic Sulu kris, look here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12578

Regards,

Detlef

Sajen · 28th May 2011, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ThePepperSkull

I think it's an interesting piece as-is, but I definitely respect the notion of restoring this and ultimately understand the reasoning behind wanting to do so. As would I respect the decision to go through with such a restorarion to make it more culturally appropriate in terms of hilt dress. (Speaking of... Jose or Kai, if this kind of Sulu kris were to have a sheath, what would its 'boat'/mouth area/top area look like? I have seen three other pieces like this, one of which I own, but none with sheathes to go with it)
:

I get my Sulu 1800th century kris with this sheat but can't answer if this will be the typical sheat for it. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12578

Regards,

Detlef

Battara · 28th May 2011, 06:25 PM

Regarding the ganga being straight, I have seen this before. True not common, but it does show up from time to time. Regarding the "boat" on the scabbard, well, I might suggest a moon shape with a higher back, sort of keris looking but in Moro fashion.

David · 28th May 2011, 07:12 PM

I am surprised that no one has made any comments on the markings on the hilt. There is an anchor and then what appears to be a letter (R, A, ???) and the numbers 66 (or 99 if we view it the other way). Certainly this is not traditional to the blade, but it does seem to speak somewhat to the history of this blade. Just a guess, but acquired by a sailor who either added it to a hiltless blade or replaced the original for some reason. I wouldn't be too quick to replace this hilt without trying to see if it holds some clue to the history of the weapon.

Tatyana Dianova · 28th May 2011, 08:24 PM

Many thanks to everybody for the very informative comments!
David: the letter is B. 66 can be the year of the handle manufacture

Kai: I have bought the Kris in a very rusty and neglected condition. I am reluctant to polish it any further. It has laminations running along the blade (snakelike, like on Keris), but very low contrast and definitely no twisted core. You can see it on the picture of the tip.

ThePepperSkull · 29th May 2011, 04:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Regarding the ganga being straight, I have seen this before. True not common, but it does show up from time to time. Regarding the "boat" on the scabbard, well, I might suggest a moon shape with a higher back, sort of keris looking but in Moro fashion.

Ah, I see. I thought it was straightened from the usual upward cant. Thanks for clarifying, Jose! Always appreciated.

27th May 2011, 09:22 PM	#1
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 678	Moro? Malay? Kris/Sundang This is my first Kris. No scabbard, horn handle (most probably later, marked with B66 and anchor), but I loved the blade I am still not 100% sure if it has a separate Ganja or not. But the tang (rectangular) was definitely repaired. A thick and massive laminated blade. Ganja thickness (from top): 1.3 cm, blade length: 55 cm. Can somebody help with identification of origin and maybe age? Attached Images

28th May 2011, 01:15 AM	#2
ThePepperSkull Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 338	I, too, would like to know the exact date of this piece. I know that it's sulu and from my approximations it may be from the 1800's? Perhaps mid 1800's but someone like kai or Battara would know better than I. The handle, like you suggest, is a new addition I think. Also the orientation of the gangya has been modified. Gangya typically have an upward cant. Originally it must have looked something like this: Attached Images

28th May 2011, 07:59 AM	#5
ThePepperSkull Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 338	I wonder why the gangya was straightened. It's an interesting (and strange) modification to me and makes me wonder about the piece as a whole. The hilt work, the number and the symbol. Could this have been acquired by western hands and replaired and modified to suit personal preference? if so, why straighten the gangya? Perhaps to facilitate handling somehow? I think it's an interesting piece as-is, but I definitely respect the notion of restoring this and ultimately understand the reasoning behind wanting to do so. As would I respect and fully support the decision to go through with such a restorarion to make it more culturally appropriate in terms of hilt dress. (Speaking of... Jose or Kai, if this kind of Sulu kris were to have a sheath, what would its 'boat'/mouth area/top area look like? I have seen three other pieces like this, one of which I own, but none with sheathes to go with it) The work does not look like typical luzon to me, but to play devil's advocate to my own argument, when has luzon hilt work ever been 'typical'? Luzon blade and hilt work is probably some of the most diverse in terms of not keeping a strict design form so it very well could be a Luzon rehilt and I, as the saying goes, could have egg on my face for presuming it is not. Something about this piece is just strange to me. the material of the hilt points to Luzon, but whenever I see a rehilted kris in Luzon dress, the gangya is removed. In some cases, the elephant mouth is filed off as well. As an example, here is a Luzon-hilted kris with a very similar recycled moro blade: Attached Images Last edited by ThePepperSkull; 28th May 2011 at 05:43 PM.

28th May 2011, 01:46 AM	#3
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	I would say that it may be early to mid 1800s. The ganga is separate and curves versus being angled which I have seen on older ones. I would also say that it is from the Sulu region in origin. Nice fuller work. Shame about the hilt. Try etching the blade and see what comes out.

28th May 2011, 05:07 PM	#6
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,485	Hello Tatyana, agree with the others, nice find and good blade. I am still working at my archaic Sulu kris, look here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=12578 Regards, Detlef

28th May 2011, 06:25 PM	#8
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Regarding the ganga being straight, I have seen this before. True not common, but it does show up from time to time. Regarding the "boat" on the scabbard, well, I might suggest a moon shape with a higher back, sort of keris looking but in Moro fashion.

28th May 2011, 07:12 PM	#9
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,024	I am surprised that no one has made any comments on the markings on the hilt. There is an anchor and then what appears to be a letter (R, A, ???) and the numbers 66 (or 99 if we view it the other way). Certainly this is not traditional to the blade, but it does seem to speak somewhat to the history of this blade. Just a guess, but acquired by a sailor who either added it to a hiltless blade or replaced the original for some reason. I wouldn't be too quick to replace this hilt without trying to see if it holds some clue to the history of the weapon.

28th May 2011, 08:24 PM	#10
Tatyana Dianova Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 678	Many thanks to everybody for the very informative comments! David: the letter is B. 66 can be the year of the handle manufacture Kai: I have bought the Kris in a very rusty and neglected condition. I am reluctant to polish it any further. It has laminations running along the blade (snakelike, like on Keris), but very low contrast and definitely no twisted core. You can see it on the picture of the tip.