Sabre for id and comments

Yustas · 3rd February 2009, 04:10 AM

Apparently it is Ukrainian cossack sabre of 18 ct.
Would you confirm this? Where it was made? Lviv, Krakow, Cherkassy?

ariel · 3rd February 2009, 10:24 PM

Another intriguing one, but here I have questions....
Can you send better pics, especially the figure on the scabbard?
Also, the label hints on inscription: Vivat Wyelne Kozaki!" ( am I correct? can't see well...)
Ukrainian Zaporozhian cossaks used Cyrillic alphabet; the inscription ( Glory to Free Cossacks) is in broken(?) Latin-based language....
The blade seems to look like a 19th century military German or French one. By that time, Cossacks were firmly under Russian control. Why would they mark their sword in Latin? I am feeling a tad uncomfortable with this one, and paranoid thoughts of modern interference are creeping into my head...
We need Michal here.... I would love to be proven wrong.

Yustas · 3rd February 2009, 10:44 PM

Actually it sais VIVAT WIERNE KOZAKI. It sais 18 century on the tag. These times, Rzecz Pospolita was still there. By the way, the style reminds me of polish sabre classification as "kozacka" by Zablocki's classification.
BTW. Blade is incredibly thin and bendy. Not to much, but more, then any other sabre i have seen.

ariel · 3rd February 2009, 11:09 PM

Wyerne. I misread the "r". Means "trusted".
The tag reads what the dealer wrote on it :-)
Ukraine became a part of the Russian Empire in the 17th century ( in 1653 Khmel'nicky signed the deal that was undone only recently).

Yustas · 4th February 2009, 12:13 AM

So, two options, dealer made a mistake, and sabre is first part of 17 ct.
Or it is a fake?

Jeff D · 4th February 2009, 12:27 AM

the blade is a blue and gold officer's. Used in the very late 18th century and early 19th century. Looks French but could be Russian, can't tell from the photo's.

All the Best
Jeff

Yustas · 4th February 2009, 12:36 AM

Wide spread from France to Moscovia. Any other countries, that were able to make these blades?
By the way, what do you guys think about statuette of a cossack with musket on the top of the scabbard?

Jeff D · 4th February 2009, 01:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yustas

Wide spread from France to Moscovia. Any other countries, that were able to make these blades?
By the way, what do you guys think about statuette of a cossack with musket on the top of the scabbard?

I might be able to narrow it down if you show the bluing and etchings better. also better details near the hilt and under the langets.

All the best
Jeff

Yustas · 4th February 2009, 01:18 AM

OK, I'll try to get some more pictures.

ariel · 4th February 2009, 02:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff D

..... and under the langets.

All the best
Jeff

I see where you are going... :-)

ingvar · 4th February 2009, 04:48 AM

uhm, the blade is definately french. handle - typical 17-18 ct. turkish, just and expencive one. Scabbard custom, the whole thing could of been a nice gift saber. back when a saber was a part of a fancy dress code this one would have looked nice, but the practical use was limited. somewhat of a "battle ready" concept of today.

A rich member of a polish (since the incription is in polish) royal gentry would have several sabers, some for combat and some for show. This one was obviously a pretty ballroom sword (wabblyness of the blade was mentioned, i believe).

Some similar blades are in the attachment, both french. First typical "Sabre de garde Allemande", second - Mexican Officer sabre circa 1830-1850

ward · 4th February 2009, 07:09 AM

This one is Ottoman provinces, probably Arabia looking at the scabbard. The guard and upper mount were replaced sometime in working life.

Yustas · 4th February 2009, 04:28 PM

What bothers me is this statue on the scabbard.
I don't think arabs would make these.
Is it possible, that it was done in Lviv by armenian masters?
From my point of view floral ornament, and the kozak itself is solely generic for Ukrainian design tradition.

ingvar · 4th February 2009, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yustas

What bothers me is this statue on the scabbard.
I don't think arabs would make these.
Is it possible, that it was done in Lviv by armenian masters?
From my point of view floral ornament, and the kozak itself is solely generic for Ukrainian design tradition.

in this case, arabs only made the pommel, the rest came later.

3rd February 2009, 04:10 AM	#1
Yustas Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 40	Sabre for id and comments Apparently it is Ukrainian cossack sabre of 18 ct. Would you confirm this? Where it was made? Lviv, Krakow, Cherkassy? Attached Images

3rd February 2009, 10:44 PM	#3
Yustas Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 40	boo Actually it sais VIVAT WIERNE KOZAKI. It sais 18 century on the tag. These times, Rzecz Pospolita was still there. By the way, the style reminds me of polish sabre classification as "kozacka" by Zablocki's classification. BTW. Blade is incredibly thin and bendy. Not to much, but more, then any other sabre i have seen.

4th February 2009, 12:13 AM	#5
Yustas Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 40	so So, two options, dealer made a mistake, and sabre is first part of 17 ct. Or it is a fake?

4th February 2009, 04:48 AM	#11
ingvar Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 11	uhm, the blade is definately french. handle - typical 17-18 ct. turkish, just and expencive one. Scabbard custom, the whole thing could of been a nice gift saber. back when a saber was a part of a fancy dress code this one would have looked nice, but the practical use was limited. somewhat of a "battle ready" concept of today. A rich member of a polish (since the incription is in polish) royal gentry would have several sabers, some for combat and some for show. This one was obviously a pretty ballroom sword (wabblyness of the blade was mentioned, i believe). Some similar blades are in the attachment, both french. First typical "Sabre de garde Allemande", second - Mexican Officer sabre circa 1830-1850 Attached Images

4th February 2009, 04:28 PM	#13
Yustas Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 40	What bothers me is this statue on the scabbard. I don't think arabs would make these. Is it possible, that it was done in Lviv by armenian masters? From my point of view floral ornament, and the kozak itself is solely generic for Ukrainian design tradition. Attached Images

3rd February 2009, 10:24 PM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Another intriguing one, but here I have questions.... Can you send better pics, especially the figure on the scabbard? Also, the label hints on inscription: Vivat Wyelne Kozaki!" ( am I correct? can't see well...) Ukrainian Zaporozhian cossaks used Cyrillic alphabet; the inscription ( Glory to Free Cossacks) is in broken(?) Latin-based language.... The blade seems to look like a 19th century military German or French one. By that time, Cossacks were firmly under Russian control. Why would they mark their sword in Latin? I am feeling a tad uncomfortable with this one, and paranoid thoughts of modern interference are creeping into my head... We need Michal here.... I would love to be proven wrong.

3rd February 2009, 11:09 PM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Wyerne. I misread the "r". Means "trusted". The tag reads what the dealer wrote on it :-) Ukraine became a part of the Russian Empire in the 17th century ( in 1653 Khmel'nicky signed the deal that was undone only recently).

4th February 2009, 12:27 AM	#6
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	the blade is a blue and gold officer's. Used in the very late 18th century and early 19th century. Looks French but could be Russian, can't tell from the photo's. All the Best Jeff

4th February 2009, 12:36 AM	#7
Yustas Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 40	Wide spread from France to Moscovia. Any other countries, that were able to make these blades? By the way, what do you guys think about statuette of a cossack with musket on the top of the scabbard?

4th February 2009, 01:18 AM	#9
Yustas Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 40	OK, I'll try to get some more pictures.

4th February 2009, 07:09 AM	#12
ward Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 637	This one is Ottoman provinces, probably Arabia looking at the scabbard. The guard and upper mount were replaced sometime in working life.