Help. Could this be what it looks like ?

fernando · 30th December 2007, 06:22 PM

The sellers thinks ( just thinks ) this could be one of these weight and chains used in prisoners.
The ball is cast iron, with a visible seam, and measures some 14 cms ( nearly 6" ) in diameter.
Looking at the marks left, it could have been that the chain was held to the ball by two rings, instead of the actual one.
This chain presently measures some two meters ( over two yards ) and was once mended, as it has two different patterns. This could be because part of its links was worn out, as are the remnant ones, which supports the hipothesis that it was a prisoner's chain, as it was long tensioned and dragged, instead of being a fixed sort of counterweight, like those of windmills, or other equipment
The all through orifice is over an inch wide, and had a later wooden plug stuck in the back end ... wonder why.
Skipping the reason for the plug, I wouldn't know the purpose for the orifice, which would naturaly be the key to identify this device.
Is there anyone familiar with this type of things ?
... Not from personal experience, of course

Would this be an actual prisoner chain, i will rush to buy it. I think a fair price can be managed.
Any help would be much wellcome.
Fernando

katana · 30th December 2007, 08:41 PM

Hi Fernando,
Just a possibillity........it might be a grenade.
The holes are where the explosive charge and fuse would be placed. The chain could be used to throw it or to connect it to another ball (usually if connected to another 'ball' they tended to be solid iron, fired from a cannon to 'cut' rigging and masts in Naval warfare.)

The iron ball (in your example) would be cast in two halves so that it had 'inherent' weakness....so that it would fragment better, when exploded.(assuming it is a grenade)

Regards David

VANDOO · 31st December 2007, 01:33 AM

A VERY CURIOUS ITEM. IT WOULD APPEAR THAT IT MAY HAVE ORIGINALLY HAD ANOTHER ATTACHMENT POINT ACROSS THE HOLE FROM THE REMAINING ONE. SOME EXPLODING CANNON PROJECTILES HAD EYES WHERE YOU COULD PICK THEM UP WITH HOOKS TO HOIST THEM INTO THE CANNONS BARREL TO POSITION IT FOR LIGHTING THE FUSE AND REMOVE THE HOOKS AND SEAT IT ON THE WADDING THEN LIGHT THE FUZE AND FIRE. MOST OF THE ONES I HAVE SEEN WERE A LOT LARGER AND TOOK 2 MEN ONE ON EACH HOOK. SO THAT IS A POSSIBILITY. IS THERE ANY EVIDENCE OF THREADS OR ANYTHING INSIDE THE HOLES FOR ATTACHING A FUZE MECHINISM.?

ON THE BALL AND CHAIN THE CHAIN AND POINT OF ATTACHMENT ARE A LOT HEAVIER AND ALL MADE OF STEEL SO IT COULD NOT BE BROKEN AS EASILY AS CAST METAL. THE CHAINS WERE ALSO KEPT SHORT SO THE PRISONER COULD NOT PICK IT UP AND WALK UP-RIGHT BUT IN A AWKWARD STOOP WHERE IT WAS IMPOSIBLE TO RUN.

Jim McDougall · 31st December 2007, 02:45 AM

As always Fernando, you post the most intriguing items! While this type of item is far outside my usual field of interest, I cannot resist trying to figure out what this would be as well. I am inclined to agree with David's very astute observations, that this seems to be some sort of grenade, and with the chains, these would tend to foul in riggings and well position them for a seriously damaging blast. There were ball grenades of this shape with an aperture for fuses etc. used into WWI, but the chain attachments lead me to go with the naval ordnance suggestion.
I always thought the prisoner type ball was larger, heavier and pretty much solid, as well as of course, manacled.

All best regards,
Jim

kronckew · 31st December 2007, 06:57 AM

i'm more inclined to the prisoner theory, the chain looks a bit light for a 6" projectile, and a naval projectile would not be hollow & chained, an exploding projectile would not have a chain. what is the weight? a prisoners ball would be heavy enough to be a burden, a grenade would be light enough to throw far enough away to keep from killing the thrower, 6in. seems a bit big for a grenade. cannon projectiles would be heavier, especially the chains,

mortar projectiles of the age had loops for securing lifting gear, but round shot, even the large ones did not. hollow cannon shot intended to be filled with gunpowder and fused were generally provided with a softer metal plug hammered into the hole without threads, like a cork. note the chain & bar shot, the ball sections are cast in halves that interlock & fly apart after firing, those along with the others were particularly useful for cutting rigging and masts/spars, a tactic the french preferred, while the brits preferred slugging it out with roundshot to the hull.

i have found references to the use of grenades being essentially abandoned after 1750 and not back in general use until 1904 as the tactics of the period did not favor their use. it also stated the grenade max weight of the time was about 2 lbs, or just under a kilo...also found some early ww1 french grenades where the fuse was in a wooden plug pushed into the grenade, and ref. to an early attempt at a 'safety' fuse where the friction fuse was ignited by pulling a string out of the fuse, the string was attached to the throwers wrist so that it was pulled when the bomblette was thrown. a note said this was 'unpopular'

generals complained about the added cost when it was decided to thread the fuse into the shell body as many would pull loose when thrown, resulting in no BOOM at the terminal end. i'da been more concerned if it did not pull out but ignited and remained dangling from the cord from my wrist. even if i did pull out, a dangling lit fuse hanging from your appendages is not healthy. another note stated that casualties amongst grenadiers appeareed to be higher. . i wonder why.

katana · 31st December 2007, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

a grenade would be light enough to throw far enough away to keep from killing the thrower, 6in. seems a bit big for a grenade.

It may be possible that a 'larger' grenade could be used in a defensive tactic if thrown from high defensive walls (ramparts) onto an invading Army.
Alternatively the 'balls' could have been carried via the 'looped' chain and placed stratigically as explosive charges.
I always thought that the ball of a 'ball and chain' was solid and heavy ...for obvious reasons.
Most 'cast' iron grenades I have seen tend to only have one hole, to fill with blackpowder and then 'plugged' with the fuse. The 'largest' hand thrown type I can find is around 4.5 " in diameter, 6" does not seem to bad a size if the throwing was assisted by the chain (athletic hammer style).
Fernando, do you have any idea as to the weight of the ball? The 'walls' of the sphere could be relatively thin making it lighter than it would appear.

My other concern is that cast iron is relatively brittle, great for a fragmentation device but bad for a prisoner's 'ball' ......an impact on another solid object could crack/shatter it. The fixing point of the chain would be most vunerable, a sharp tap with a rock ...and your 'off and running' albeit with a length of chain ...but you could swing that around as a weapon (if the chain was long enough)

http://www.knightsedge.com/medieval-...-and-chain.htm

I suppose you could argue that using chain (to throw the 'ball') is over-engineering when a suitable sized rope could be used instead. However, a rope is more likely to fail if damaged/worn and if it broke as you were 'swinging' it .... the explosive could go anywhere

I think the chain would be wiser ...and would provide more shrapnel.

Regards David

There is also the possibility that this is a mortar shell and the chain handle was used to lift and load.

katana · 31st December 2007, 03:36 PM

Checking the possibillity that this could be a mortar 'shell' I have found that this is looking likely.

1. mortar round shells have two hooks/ loops to aid loading.
2. These 'loading loops' are always positioned either side of the fuse hole.
3. Some round shells have two holes, one is used to add lead shot (which is then plugged' with lead...usually) the other is for the fuse.

I had assumed the chain was 'fixed' at the time of manufacture.....but it is quite possible that this was a mortar shell, that had the chain fitted later....
However, the 's' shaped link that attaches the chain to the ball seems identical to the 'last link' that attaches the 'different chain', seeing that one fixing loop is missing it highly suggests that the chain was looped and was attached to it originally with the other 'S' link (see pic)

David

Jim McDougall · 31st December 2007, 04:51 PM

What a fantastic presentation Kronckew! As I mentioned, this topic is well outside my regular field of study, and this material is truly educational and very much appreciated.
David, I am always captivated by your deductive reasoning and well laid out responses, which always seem to energize the discussion at hand. I'm always amazed at the core of knowledge here by so many members on such a wide field of topics, and its always exciting to all keep learning together.

Again Fernando, thank you for never hesitating to post the unusual items you discover. Although many times not directly related to ethnographic edged weapons, its often surprising how many clues with them sometimes do have some application to either the weapons themselves, or the perspective on the period.

Thanks very much guys!

All the best,
Jim

fernando · 31st December 2007, 06:46 PM

Gentlemen

I can't bear such imense satisfaction at reading your coments and data pouring in.

I will have to digest all that and also phone the seller before i dare to reply with some sense.

Say David, can you post the link containing that grenade ball with the two side rings ?

Fernando

fernando · 31st December 2007, 08:39 PM

I thank you all again to gather at this brain storm.
This device is surely appealing, no doubt.
Now ...
If not a prisoner ball and chain
If also not cannon ball
I would go back to the counterweight version, like those used in mechanical wind mills that pull water from wells ... You know what i mean ?
Tomorrow i'll go around country to look better to those mills.
We all agree, Vandoo, that it could have had two suspension ring loops instead of the present one.
The chain was surely prolongated, as we can see by the different patterns.
Also the first section of the chain could have been looped back to the hipothetical second ring on the ball; that was a brilliant deduction, David.
But then, why the addition ... a second function ?
On the other hand, the chain links are well worn, in both sections. Whatever this device was, its function was not static, like it was dragged or rolled all the time ... and that's an important point to consider.
Concerning the weight, being the ball diameter close to 6", if it were a solid cannon ball, would be a 24 pounder, right ? However we must deduct the hole ... but add the chain.
It is not a grenade or a case shot, as it is not hollowed enough. Its hole is cilindrical and all through; i still wonder why somebody plugged the end contrary to the hanging device.
Just something to keep exercizing one's brains.
Fernando

fernando · 1st January 2008, 05:37 PM

I am deeply sorry this object is not connected with gunnery or even with restraint devices, thus missing its collecting interest.
It took me eighty miles around country, partly under heavy rain, through some six farm wind mills completely abandoned and missing their machinery, till i found one in working condition, where we can clearly see that the discussed ball and chains belong to that kind of apparatus.
The pictures are penalized by the weather conditions, but it's all there; the upper ball suspended by two rings, and the intermediary ball with an orifice to enable the chain to pass through, to suspend the lowest one.
I highly apreciate the efforts of the involved members in trying to figure out what this thing would be, and i feel much obliged for their kind cooperation.
My humble respects
Fernando

kronckew · 1st January 2008, 08:08 PM

well, learning something new is a good way to start the new year....

Jim McDougall · 1st January 2008, 08:59 PM

Absolutely Kronckew!

Fernando, thank you so much for sharing this, and especially for your diligent efforts to finally solve this mystery. Whether directly related to our central field of study or not, this thread has been fun and informative, and I truly have learned from the great posts.
A great detective story!....now for the movie!!!

You're the best Fernando!

All very best regards,
Jim

P.S. Great pictures,looks like beautiful country. Is that an RV park? Maybe if I could get some floats on this thing!!!

hmmm.

fernando · 2nd January 2008, 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

P.S. Great pictures,looks like beautiful country. Is that an RV park? Maybe if I could get some floats on this thing!!!

hmmm.

Keen eye, Jim

.
It's a camping site in a little country reserve.
Can't you mount some surf boards on your vessel ?

spiral · 2nd January 2008, 04:15 PM

Fascinating thread! thanks!

Spiral

30th December 2007, 06:22 PM	#1
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,641	Help. Could this be what it looks like ? The sellers thinks ( just thinks ) this could be one of these weight and chains used in prisoners. The ball is cast iron, with a visible seam, and measures some 14 cms ( nearly 6" ) in diameter. Looking at the marks left, it could have been that the chain was held to the ball by two rings, instead of the actual one. This chain presently measures some two meters ( over two yards ) and was once mended, as it has two different patterns. This could be because part of its links was worn out, as are the remnant ones, which supports the hipothesis that it was a prisoner's chain, as it was long tensioned and dragged, instead of being a fixed sort of counterweight, like those of windmills, or other equipment The all through orifice is over an inch wide, and had a later wooden plug stuck in the back end ... wonder why. Skipping the reason for the plug, I wouldn't know the purpose for the orifice, which would naturaly be the key to identify this device. Is there anyone familiar with this type of things ? ... Not from personal experience, of course Would this be an actual prisoner chain, i will rush to buy it. I think a fair price can be managed. Any help would be much wellcome. Fernando Attached Images

31st December 2007, 06:57 AM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,150	i'm more inclined to the prisoner theory, the chain looks a bit light for a 6" projectile, and a naval projectile would not be hollow & chained, an exploding projectile would not have a chain. what is the weight? a prisoners ball would be heavy enough to be a burden, a grenade would be light enough to throw far enough away to keep from killing the thrower, 6in. seems a bit big for a grenade. cannon projectiles would be heavier, especially the chains, mortar projectiles of the age had loops for securing lifting gear, but round shot, even the large ones did not. hollow cannon shot intended to be filled with gunpowder and fused were generally provided with a softer metal plug hammered into the hole without threads, like a cork. note the chain & bar shot, the ball sections are cast in halves that interlock & fly apart after firing, those along with the others were particularly useful for cutting rigging and masts/spars, a tactic the french preferred, while the brits preferred slugging it out with roundshot to the hull. i have found references to the use of grenades being essentially abandoned after 1750 and not back in general use until 1904 as the tactics of the period did not favor their use. it also stated the grenade max weight of the time was about 2 lbs, or just under a kilo...also found some early ww1 french grenades where the fuse was in a wooden plug pushed into the grenade, and ref. to an early attempt at a 'safety' fuse where the friction fuse was ignited by pulling a string out of the fuse, the string was attached to the throwers wrist so that it was pulled when the bomblette was thrown. a note said this was 'unpopular' generals complained about the added cost when it was decided to thread the fuse into the shell body as many would pull loose when thrown, resulting in no BOOM at the terminal end. i'da been more concerned if it did not pull out but ignited and remained dangling from the cord from my wrist. even if i did pull out, a dangling lit fuse hanging from your appendages is not healthy. another note stated that casualties amongst grenadiers appeareed to be higher. . i wonder why. Last edited by kronckew; 31st December 2007 at 07:54 AM.

31st December 2007, 03:36 PM	#7
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Checking the possibillity that this could be a mortar 'shell' I have found that this is looking likely. 1. mortar round shells have two hooks/ loops to aid loading. 2. These 'loading loops' are always positioned either side of the fuse hole. 3. Some round shells have two holes, one is used to add lead shot (which is then plugged' with lead...usually) the other is for the fuse. I had assumed the chain was 'fixed' at the time of manufacture.....but it is quite possible that this was a mortar shell, that had the chain fitted later.... However, the 's' shaped link that attaches the chain to the ball seems identical to the 'last link' that attaches the 'different chain', seeing that one fixing loop is missing it highly suggests that the chain was looped and was attached to it originally with the other 'S' link (see pic) David Attached Images Last edited by katana; 31st December 2007 at 03:48 PM.

31st December 2007, 08:39 PM	#10
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,641	Some loose notes for the time being I thank you all again to gather at this brain storm. This device is surely appealing, no doubt. Now ... If not a prisoner ball and chain If also not cannon ball I would go back to the counterweight version, like those used in mechanical wind mills that pull water from wells ... You know what i mean ? Tomorrow i'll go around country to look better to those mills. We all agree, Vandoo, that it could have had two suspension ring loops instead of the present one. The chain was surely prolongated, as we can see by the different patterns. Also the first section of the chain could have been looped back to the hipothetical second ring on the ball; that was a brilliant deduction, David. But then, why the addition ... a second function ? On the other hand, the chain links are well worn, in both sections. Whatever this device was, its function was not static, like it was dragged or rolled all the time ... and that's an important point to consider. Concerning the weight, being the ball diameter close to 6", if it were a solid cannon ball, would be a 24 pounder, right ? However we must deduct the hole ... but add the chain. It is not a grenade or a case shot, as it is not hollowed enough. Its hole is cilindrical and all through; i still wonder why somebody plugged the end contrary to the hanging device. Just something to keep exercizing one's brains. Fernando Attached Images

1st January 2008, 05:37 PM	#11
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,641	End of enigma I am deeply sorry this object is not connected with gunnery or even with restraint devices, thus missing its collecting interest. It took me eighty miles around country, partly under heavy rain, through some six farm wind mills completely abandoned and missing their machinery, till i found one in working condition, where we can clearly see that the discussed ball and chains belong to that kind of apparatus. The pictures are penalized by the weather conditions, but it's all there; the upper ball suspended by two rings, and the intermediary ball with an orifice to enable the chain to pass through, to suspend the lowest one. I highly apreciate the efforts of the involved members in trying to figure out what this thing would be, and i feel much obliged for their kind cooperation. My humble respects Fernando Attached Images

30th December 2007, 08:41 PM	#2
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Fernando, Just a possibillity........it might be a grenade. The holes are where the explosive charge and fuse would be placed. The chain could be used to throw it or to connect it to another ball (usually if connected to another 'ball' they tended to be solid iron, fired from a cannon to 'cut' rigging and masts in Naval warfare.) The iron ball (in your example) would be cast in two halves so that it had 'inherent' weakness....so that it would fragment better, when exploded.(assuming it is a grenade) Regards David

31st December 2007, 01:33 AM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	A VERY CURIOUS ITEM. IT WOULD APPEAR THAT IT MAY HAVE ORIGINALLY HAD ANOTHER ATTACHMENT POINT ACROSS THE HOLE FROM THE REMAINING ONE. SOME EXPLODING CANNON PROJECTILES HAD EYES WHERE YOU COULD PICK THEM UP WITH HOOKS TO HOIST THEM INTO THE CANNONS BARREL TO POSITION IT FOR LIGHTING THE FUSE AND REMOVE THE HOOKS AND SEAT IT ON THE WADDING THEN LIGHT THE FUZE AND FIRE. MOST OF THE ONES I HAVE SEEN WERE A LOT LARGER AND TOOK 2 MEN ONE ON EACH HOOK. SO THAT IS A POSSIBILITY. IS THERE ANY EVIDENCE OF THREADS OR ANYTHING INSIDE THE HOLES FOR ATTACHING A FUZE MECHINISM.? ON THE BALL AND CHAIN THE CHAIN AND POINT OF ATTACHMENT ARE A LOT HEAVIER AND ALL MADE OF STEEL SO IT COULD NOT BE BROKEN AS EASILY AS CAST METAL. THE CHAINS WERE ALSO KEPT SHORT SO THE PRISONER COULD NOT PICK IT UP AND WALK UP-RIGHT BUT IN A AWKWARD STOOP WHERE IT WAS IMPOSIBLE TO RUN.

31st December 2007, 02:45 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,739	As always Fernando, you post the most intriguing items! While this type of item is far outside my usual field of interest, I cannot resist trying to figure out what this would be as well. I am inclined to agree with David's very astute observations, that this seems to be some sort of grenade, and with the chains, these would tend to foul in riggings and well position them for a seriously damaging blast. There were ball grenades of this shape with an aperture for fuses etc. used into WWI, but the chain attachments lead me to go with the naval ordnance suggestion. I always thought the prisoner type ball was larger, heavier and pretty much solid, as well as of course, manacled. All best regards, Jim

31st December 2007, 04:51 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,739	What a fantastic presentation Kronckew! As I mentioned, this topic is well outside my regular field of study, and this material is truly educational and very much appreciated. David, I am always captivated by your deductive reasoning and well laid out responses, which always seem to energize the discussion at hand. I'm always amazed at the core of knowledge here by so many members on such a wide field of topics, and its always exciting to all keep learning together. Again Fernando, thank you for never hesitating to post the unusual items you discover. Although many times not directly related to ethnographic edged weapons, its often surprising how many clues with them sometimes do have some application to either the weapons themselves, or the perspective on the period. Thanks very much guys! All the best, Jim

31st December 2007, 06:46 PM	#9
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,641	Gentlemen I can't bear such imense satisfaction at reading your coments and data pouring in. I will have to digest all that and also phone the seller before i dare to reply with some sense. Say David, can you post the link containing that grenade ball with the two side rings ? Fernando

1st January 2008, 08:08 PM	#12
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,150	well, learning something new is a good way to start the new year....

1st January 2008, 08:59 PM	#13
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,739	Absolutely Kronckew! Fernando, thank you so much for sharing this, and especially for your diligent efforts to finally solve this mystery. Whether directly related to our central field of study or not, this thread has been fun and informative, and I truly have learned from the great posts. A great detective story!....now for the movie!!! You're the best Fernando! All very best regards, Jim P.S. Great pictures,looks like beautiful country. Is that an RV park? Maybe if I could get some floats on this thing!!! hmmm.

2nd January 2008, 04:15 PM	#15
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Fascinating thread! thanks! Spiral