Metal wrapped javanese hilt

Sajen · 30th December 2010, 05:18 PM

I want to show you a rare javanese metal wrapped hilt I buy some time ago from a member of this forum. The metal isn't pure silver, I think that it is german silver. The core is some sort of resin. The seller told me that the hilt is from Cirebon, can someone confirm this. The pictures from the seller are very good so I use them and hope it's ok like this.
Every comment is welcome and I hope that someone can show a similar hilt for comparison.

Regards,

Detlef

David · 30th December 2010, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

The metal isn't pure silver, I think that it is german silver.

Awesome and unusual hilt. I don't know if a Solo style yudowinatan hilt would come from Cirebon though.

Just and FYI, despite the name German Silver or Nickel Silver as it is also known actually contains no silver at all. It is generally composed of copper, nickel and zinc.

David · 30th December 2010, 05:48 PM

I toned this up a bit so that you can see the core a bit better.

Sajen · 30th December 2010, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Awesome and unusual hilt. I don't know if a Solo style yudowinatan hilt would come from Cirebon though.

Just and FYI, despite the name German Silver or Nickel Silver as it is also known actually contains no silver at all. It is generally composed of copper, nickel and zinc.

Thank you David for comment and brighten up the picture, the core is better to seen now. I am aware that there is no silver contain in German Silver but it's as well possible that the metal is a low silver alloy, I am unsure by this since I haven't test it until now.
The yudowinatan style of the hilt and the information from the seller that it come from Cirebon have been the reason why I post this hilt here. Without his information I would be sure that it is a hilt from Central Java, i.e. Solo. But I know that the seller have a very good knowledge and hope he see this thread and will be able to explain his conclusion. So the discussion is open for all to determine the origin of this hilt since I am not aware to have seen a similar hilt somewhere until now.

Regards,

Detlef

Gustav · 30th December 2010, 06:38 PM

Hallo Sajen,

in the new Groneman, page 25, there is a depiction of keris with completely silver covered sheath and hilt, I also have seen keris with very similar sarung for sell in Netherlands.

Sajen · 30th December 2010, 06:39 PM

Just found this old thread with a keris equipped with a similar hilt:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5888

Sajen · 30th December 2010, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

Hallo Sajen,

in the new Groneman, page 25, there is a depiction of keris with completely silver covered sheath and hilt, I also have seen keris with very similar sarung for sell in Netherlands.

Hello Gustav,

thank you for the hint. Yes, the hilt is very similar and the assumption that my hilt is Solonese more probable. I hope that the seller join in and will explain why he think that it is from Cirebon.

Regards,

Detlef

Marcokeris · 30th December 2010, 11:13 PM

I like a lot this hit. I don't think it comes from a Cirebon area. IMO: Solo
Very nice hit (i don't have one like this)

Sajen · 31st December 2010, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

I like a lot this hit. I don't think it comes from a Cirebon area. IMO: Solo
Very nice hit (i don't have one like this)

Thank you Marco, you are the third who vote for Solo.

Regards,

Detlef

tunggulametung · 31st December 2010, 03:47 PM

Hello guys,

First off, happy new year to all!

Nice thread. Detlef, if you allow me, I will throw my answer later as I want to hear what other said without interruption from my end. The more opinion the better. Anyhow, in the future should my personal opinion is what you after (I know you want to hear what other said in this thread), you know I'm just an email away

And thank you for the kind word Detlef, but I will say my knowledge is insufficient (I'm often lost)

, and that's why I'm here to study because I know I can learn from far more experienced members or simply drooling over fine acquisition like what you usually post.

My answer will be quite simple and merely based on personal observation. But sorry I'm afraid I cannot academically confirm like be very very very sure of, just the reason and some opinions

All the best in 2011!

Sajen · 31st December 2010, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tunggulametung

Hello guys,

First off, happy new year to all!

Nice thread. Detlef, if you allow me, I will throw my answer later as I want to hear what other said without interruption from my end. The more opinion the better. Anyhow, in the future should my personal opinion is what you after (I know you want to hear what other said in this thread), you know I'm just an email away

And thank you for the kind word Detlef, but I will say my knowledge is insufficient (I'm often lost)

, and that's why I'm here to study because I know I can learn from far more experienced members or simply drooling over fine acquisition like what you usually post.

My answer will be quite simple and merely based on personal observation. But sorry I'm afraid I cannot academically confirm like be very very very sure of, just the reason and some opinions

All the best in 2011!

Hello Chandra,

thank you for jumping in!

Of course I know that I can write you by e-mail but like you suggest correct I want to hear other opinion also and it was a temporary suggestion to post the hilt for discussion.

So let us wait to hear other opinion until you post yours.

Also from me to you and all others a very good year 2011,

Detlef

Jean · 1st January 2011, 11:21 AM

I hope that Alan will be able to comment on the probable origin of this hilt?
I don't remember to have seen a similar piece in Solo or elsewhere.
Attached are the pictures of a Cirebon hilt made from silver alloy on a resin core (bought in 1995 in Jakarta, semi old I think).
Best regards and happy New Year to all!
Jean

A. G. Maisey · 3rd January 2011, 02:23 AM

I've come across a number of this style of hilt over the years, some very old, some of middle age, some quite recent. Anybody I've ever asked about them has said "North Coast Jawa".

Sajen · 3rd January 2011, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I've come across a number of this style of hilt over the years, some very old, some of middle age, some quite recent. Anybody I've ever asked about them has said "North Coast Jawa".

Thank you Alan, so it seems that Chandra is correct to appoint the origin of this hilt to Cirebon. As well the conclusion from Jean seems to confirm this.

Regards,

Detlef

David · 3rd January 2011, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Thank you Alan, so it seems that Chandra is correct to appoint the origin of this hilt to Cirebon. As well the conclusion from Jean seems to confirm this.

Regards,

Detlef

Detlef, i might be mistaken, but i think that Alan might only be referring to the example that Jean has shown, not the one that you began the thread with.

Sajen · 3rd January 2011, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David

Detlef, i might be mistaken, but i think that Alan might only be referring to the example that Jean has shown, not the one that you began the thread with.

Now, when you write this I am unsure as well!

Maybe Alan will be so kind to rectify this.

Gustav · 4th January 2011, 12:04 AM

Alan,

Jasper/Mas Pirngadie writes, the Surakarta hilt form comes from Paisisiran (page 210 abowe: (...)terwijl de Soesoehoenan van Soerakarta de oekirran Pasisirran zou hebben aangenomen.).

Is there some truth behinde this?

A. G. Maisey · 4th January 2011, 02:15 AM

Yes, I was referring to Jean's hilt.

I have not read J&P. It is supposedly reliable, however, this hilt form shown at the beginning of this thread is definitely a Central Jawa form, very probably Surakarta.

It appears somewhat distorted on my screen and very miniscule variations in hilt forms of this general type can indicate different things.

In my experience this is most definitely a Central Javanese form, but I have no idea at all where it might have been made.

Battara · 4th January 2011, 03:32 AM

I must admit that I like these hilts. I love the chasing work on these.

I will also add from a metals standpoint that I feel that these would be made of thin sheet silver, which would be much softer than white metal or "German silver", and thus easier to work and more detail can be added.

Sajen · 4th January 2011, 07:44 PM

Thank you Alan for clarification. The hilt is approximate 9 cm (3,5 inch) high so it is not significant small but dainty worked.

Jose, i will test it the next days but I don't think that there is a silver contingent inside my hilt.

Regards,

Detlef

PenangsangII · 5th January 2011, 05:00 AM

the carving looks Cirebon to me though the overall hilt pakem conform Solonese. The mendak also looks like meniran Cirebon...

Gustav · 5th January 2011, 01:44 PM

This thread seems to become more and more weird - a classic of its kind

David · 5th January 2011, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

the carving looks Cirebon to me though the overall hilt pakem conform Solonese. The mendak also looks like meniran Cirebon...

You have confused me Penangsang....which hilt are you commenting on? Sajen's original posting has no mendak, but it seems to be the one where the "overall hilt pakem conform Solonese". It is Jean's example that has a mendak and this one looks much more clearly Cirebon to me.

Sajen · 5th January 2011, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

the carving looks Cirebon to me though the overall hilt pakem conform Solonese. The mendak also looks like meniran Cirebon...

I am confused as well!

Same reason like by David. Please can you explain from which hilt you are "speaking"?

Regards,

Detlef

PenangsangII · 6th January 2011, 04:46 AM

I am confused as well... that's the problem surfing the internet using small gadjet like a hand phone

aplogy everyone...got mixed up with the 2 great pictures.... yup, the first one is Solonese pakem but the metal works could have been Cirebon, as its often to see Cirebonese hilts wrapped in silver carved works.

The second one is of of course pesisiran type, most probably Cirebon or Banten. The mendak on the seco0nd hilt is meniran Cirebon type I think...

Jean · 6th January 2011, 11:50 AM

Dear friends,

Sorry to have been the source of so many confusions, it was not intentional but only to show another type of Javanese metal hilt on resin core and possibly from the same origin as the one from Sajen. May be some of you were distracted by the New Year festivities?

Best regards
Jean

David · 6th January 2011, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Dear friends,

Sorry to have been the source of so many confusions, it was not intentional but only to show another type of Javanese metal hilt on resin core and possibly from the same origin as the one from Sajen. May be some of you were distracted by the New Year festivities?

Best regards
Jean

Hey Jean, i do not believe you are the source of confusion here so no need to apologize. Your entry in this thread is quite logical and applicable to the question...

tunggulametung · 29th January 2011, 09:01 PM

Hello guys, I guess I owe this following post and it is due. I've been exchanging some PMs with Detlef much earlier but here it goes.

This hilt is coming from a Cirebonese friend from whom I obtain some unique pieces, he said it is collected there and I have no doubt about his integrity.

I've seen few examples which is said coming from the area but unfortunately never as eleborate. Other than the shape which is attributed to Surakarta, the material, the build and artistic might give a good direction to Sunda, please refer to (easier to find) golok example from the region.

By mentioning Cirebon, I would suggest that we think of Sunda as a whole, i.e. Kuningan, Bandung, Ciamis, Sukabumi, Pandeglang, Serang, Cianjur, Sumedang, etc. and even the western approximate of Central Java.

I attached some old photos from KILTV online collection to show that by the late 1800s it seems that nunggak semi hilts is rather a standard for Sundanese aristocrates (most of the name confirm they are Sundanese ethnically i.e. not Javanese expatriate by Dutch appointment). If you browse more it is apperent that it is the same case with estern part of Java other than some people who prefer to carry local style on the occasion (East Java, Madura).

I could be wrong but I doubt nunggak semi is unique to Mataram in the past. To the more extreme way of thinking, can anyone prove that it is born over there? Then we learn that Islam teaching start from coastal regions (pesisiran) so could it be Banten? Cirebon? Tegal? Pekalongan? Demak? Jepara? Tuban? Gresik? When was it born? as early as 14 c.? 15c.? 16c.? older? much older? Has anybody worn it once in the street market of Trowulan of Gajah Mada time? Or only after Pajang era? Or is it imported (and/or modified) to Java from Sumatra (Pasai)? I doubt other than Syarif Hidayatullah (Sunan Gunung Jati) and people of his time who live long enough to witness the shift of Hindu to Islam (Majapahit to Mataram) can answer this.

If we brought it to modern time, it is now a 'standard' style, loosly and wrongly, nationwide. On the following pesisiran performace [clip] , the attire, the dance, the music, everything says Sundanese, but not the keris. It has travelled as far as Brunei Darussalam on formal pose and become one of the most popular government souvenir for foreign guests other than Balinese keris.

Of course I can be wrong on this and I'm always eager to learn something new

tunggulametung · 29th January 2011, 09:10 PM

More pictures... Raden Adipati Wira with his amazing collection and (once mine) carved horn hilt which is said coming from Cirebon (or surrounding

).

Sajen · 30th January 2011, 03:10 PM

Hello Chandra,

thank you very much for your detailed post and the very interesting pictures.

I will describe my hilt as a Cirebon yudowinatan hilt.

What catch my eyes are the collection from Raden Adipati Wira. The keris he wear in the first picture and is shown at the second picture in the middle again. The wrongko is typical Cirebon/Tegal but the handle is normally attributed to Sumatra/Kariman Djawa. Also the wrongko at the fourth picture on the left side is in the form of Palembang sheaths but it is not the first time that I have heard that this for is also common for Cirebon. This all shows again that the affinity between Java/Cirebon and Sumatra is very very close.

Thank you again and kind regards,

Detlef

30th December 2010, 05:18 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,483	Metal wrapped javanese hilt I want to show you a rare javanese metal wrapped hilt I buy some time ago from a member of this forum. The metal isn't pure silver, I think that it is german silver. The core is some sort of resin. The seller told me that the hilt is from Cirebon, can someone confirm this. The pictures from the seller are very good so I use them and hope it's ok like this. Every comment is welcome and I hope that someone can show a similar hilt for comparison. Regards, Detlef Attached Images

30th December 2010, 05:48 PM	#3
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,024	I toned this up a bit so that you can see the core a bit better. Attached Images

31st December 2010, 03:47 PM	#10
tunggulametung Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 238	the seller here Hello guys, First off, happy new year to all! Nice thread. Detlef, if you allow me, I will throw my answer later as I want to hear what other said without interruption from my end. The more opinion the better. Anyhow, in the future should my personal opinion is what you after (I know you want to hear what other said in this thread), you know I'm just an email away And thank you for the kind word Detlef, but I will say my knowledge is insufficient (I'm often lost) , and that's why I'm here to study because I know I can learn from far more experienced members or simply drooling over fine acquisition like what you usually post. My answer will be quite simple and merely based on personal observation. But sorry I'm afraid I cannot academically confirm like be very very very sure of, just the reason and some opinions All the best in 2011!

1st January 2011, 11:21 AM	#12
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	I hope that Alan will be able to comment on the probable origin of this hilt? I don't remember to have seen a similar piece in Solo or elsewhere. Attached are the pictures of a Cirebon hilt made from silver alloy on a resin core (bought in 1995 in Jakarta, semi old I think). Best regards and happy New Year to all! Jean Attached Images

29th January 2011, 09:01 PM	#28
tunggulametung Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 238	Hello guys, I guess I owe this following post and it is due. I've been exchanging some PMs with Detlef much earlier but here it goes. This hilt is coming from a Cirebonese friend from whom I obtain some unique pieces, he said it is collected there and I have no doubt about his integrity. I've seen few examples which is said coming from the area but unfortunately never as eleborate. Other than the shape which is attributed to Surakarta, the material, the build and artistic might give a good direction to Sunda, please refer to (easier to find) golok example from the region. By mentioning Cirebon, I would suggest that we think of Sunda as a whole, i.e. Kuningan, Bandung, Ciamis, Sukabumi, Pandeglang, Serang, Cianjur, Sumedang, etc. and even the western approximate of Central Java. I attached some old photos from KILTV online collection to show that by the late 1800s it seems that nunggak semi hilts is rather a standard for Sundanese aristocrates (most of the name confirm they are Sundanese ethnically i.e. not Javanese expatriate by Dutch appointment). If you browse more it is apperent that it is the same case with estern part of Java other than some people who prefer to carry local style on the occasion (East Java, Madura). I could be wrong but I doubt nunggak semi is unique to Mataram in the past. To the more extreme way of thinking, can anyone prove that it is born over there? Then we learn that Islam teaching start from coastal regions (pesisiran) so could it be Banten? Cirebon? Tegal? Pekalongan? Demak? Jepara? Tuban? Gresik? When was it born? as early as 14 c.? 15c.? 16c.? older? much older? Has anybody worn it once in the street market of Trowulan of Gajah Mada time? Or only after Pajang era? Or is it imported (and/or modified) to Java from Sumatra (Pasai)? I doubt other than Syarif Hidayatullah (Sunan Gunung Jati) and people of his time who live long enough to witness the shift of Hindu to Islam (Majapahit to Mataram) can answer this. If we brought it to modern time, it is now a 'standard' style, loosly and wrongly, nationwide. On the following pesisiran performace [clip] , the attire, the dance, the music, everything says Sundanese, but not the keris. It has travelled as far as Brunei Darussalam on formal pose and become one of the most popular government souvenir for foreign guests other than Balinese keris. Of course I can be wrong on this and I'm always eager to learn something new Attached Images

30th December 2010, 06:38 PM	#5
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,196	Hallo Sajen, in the new Groneman, page 25, there is a depiction of keris with completely silver covered sheath and hilt, I also have seen keris with very similar sarung for sell in Netherlands.

30th December 2010, 06:39 PM	#6
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,483	Just found this old thread with a keris equipped with a similar hilt: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5888

30th December 2010, 11:13 PM	#8
Marcokeris Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Italy Posts: 928	I like a lot this hit. I don't think it comes from a Cirebon area. IMO: Solo Very nice hit (i don't have one like this)

3rd January 2011, 02:23 AM	#13
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	I've come across a number of this style of hilt over the years, some very old, some of middle age, some quite recent. Anybody I've ever asked about them has said "North Coast Jawa".

4th January 2011, 12:04 AM	#17
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,196	Alan, Jasper/Mas Pirngadie writes, the Surakarta hilt form comes from Paisisiran (page 210 abowe: (...)terwijl de Soesoehoenan van Soerakarta de oekirran Pasisirran zou hebben aangenomen.). Is there some truth behinde this?

4th January 2011, 02:15 AM	#18
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	Yes, I was referring to Jean's hilt. I have not read J&P. It is supposedly reliable, however, this hilt form shown at the beginning of this thread is definitely a Central Jawa form, very probably Surakarta. It appears somewhat distorted on my screen and very miniscule variations in hilt forms of this general type can indicate different things. In my experience this is most definitely a Central Javanese form, but I have no idea at all where it might have been made.

4th January 2011, 03:32 AM	#19
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	I must admit that I like these hilts. I love the chasing work on these. I will also add from a metals standpoint that I feel that these would be made of thin sheet silver, which would be much softer than white metal or "German silver", and thus easier to work and more detail can be added.

4th January 2011, 07:44 PM	#20
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,483	Thank you Alan for clarification. The hilt is approximate 9 cm (3,5 inch) high so it is not significant small but dainty worked. Jose, i will test it the next days but I don't think that there is a silver contingent inside my hilt. Regards, Detlef

5th January 2011, 05:00 AM	#21
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	the carving looks Cirebon to me though the overall hilt pakem conform Solonese. The mendak also looks like meniran Cirebon...

5th January 2011, 01:44 PM	#22
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,196	This thread seems to become more and more weird - a classic of its kind

6th January 2011, 04:46 AM	#25
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	I am confused as well... that's the problem surfing the internet using small gadjet like a hand phone aplogy everyone...got mixed up with the 2 great pictures.... yup, the first one is Solonese pakem but the metal works could have been Cirebon, as its often to see Cirebonese hilts wrapped in silver carved works. The second one is of of course pesisiran type, most probably Cirebon or Banten. The mendak on the seco0nd hilt is meniran Cirebon type I think...

6th January 2011, 11:50 AM	#26
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Dear friends, Sorry to have been the source of so many confusions, it was not intentional but only to show another type of Javanese metal hilt on resin core and possibly from the same origin as the one from Sajen. May be some of you were distracted by the New Year festivities? Best regards Jean

29th January 2011, 09:10 PM	#29
tunggulametung Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 238	More pictures... Raden Adipati Wira with his amazing collection and (once mine) carved horn hilt which is said coming from Cirebon (or surrounding ). Attached Images

30th January 2011, 03:10 PM	#30
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,483	Hello Chandra, thank you very much for your detailed post and the very interesting pictures. I will describe my hilt as a Cirebon yudowinatan hilt. What catch my eyes are the collection from Raden Adipati Wira. The keris he wear in the first picture and is shown at the second picture in the middle again. The wrongko is typical Cirebon/Tegal but the handle is normally attributed to Sumatra/Kariman Djawa. Also the wrongko at the fourth picture on the left side is in the form of Palembang sheaths but it is not the first time that I have heard that this for is also common for Cirebon. This all shows again that the affinity between Java/Cirebon and Sumatra is very very close. Thank you again and kind regards, Detlef