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5th July 2009, 03:34 PM
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#1 |
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Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The Sharp end
Posts: 2,928
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Translation help needed: Arabic cartouche
Hi Guys,
Think I've picked up a nice piece of associated metalware to help display the collection!  Can anyone hlep with a translation of this cartouche? Regards Gene 
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5th July 2009, 04:03 PM
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#2 |
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Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The Sharp end
Posts: 2,928
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Am I seeing a 1312 date?
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5th July 2009, 04:04 PM
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#3 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 5,503
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You are :-)
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5th July 2009, 04:11 PM
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#4 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The Sharp end
Posts: 2,928
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Quote:
Would you make that 1895 in new money? |
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5th July 2009, 06:57 PM
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#5 | |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG)
Posts: 1,142
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Quote:
 but the translation isn't easy  may be concerning a black-smith or blade-smith, not arab, could be Persian ? the cartouche mention; - AMAL ALI ??? translated by - MADE BY ALI ???? ALI being the favorite name for Chiites, that may give an idea but echec to translate the other name  à + Dom (from NAS Fallon - Nevada) |
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8th July 2009, 06:50 PM
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#6 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The Sharp end
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Quote:
 My date is right though is it =1895? LOL, wonder if its the same 'ali' who made my Persian Shamshir  Any ideas on the rest? Regards Gene |
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9th July 2009, 05:20 PM
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#7 | |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG)
Posts: 1,142
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Quote:
for the date, no doubt = 1895 but to have more ideas with just a pic of very small part (cartouche, no more) of that ?? dagger ?? sword ?? battle axe ?? could be the same than to give an appreciation about a woman from her hand picture  à + Dom (from SF CA, trip mainly ended) |
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9th July 2009, 08:34 PM
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#8 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The Sharp end
Posts: 2,928
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Quote:
Hello Dom, Thanks for the reply, you want to see the whole 'item'... LOL, its not so much a sword, or a dagger.... Or an Axe. Its kind of more a tray for me to display some daggers on. I really like bronze and brass, this is a bronze tray, 53cm/37.5cm, absolutely covered in beautiful carved designs. One of the best I've seen. 
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9th July 2009, 08:35 PM
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#9 |
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Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The Sharp end
Posts: 2,928
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10th July 2009, 09:20 AM
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#10 |
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Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 935
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Gene, if you'd not mention 'bronze', I'd be almost certain it is silver. It's unbelievable to see this kind of quality and detail on bronze. This is one of the best I've seen as well. I also like bronze and brass, and especially damascened: 3-metal "Mamluk Revival" types. I realize it's off the scope of this forum (so I'll PM you personally), but I'd like to thank you for posting the great closeups of such a rare and truly beautiful item.
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10th July 2009, 10:57 PM
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#11 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The Sharp end
Posts: 2,928
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Quote:
Its really nice of you to say so. I know I do very occasionally stray from the arms & armour field and I do appreciate everyones 'patience' when I start threads about the occasional bowl or um... tray.But I must admit that I secretly hope that my fellow forumites share my love of this sort of thing! Problem is its just such a huge area! I've got beautiful metalwork from right across asia (although I try to concentrate on India it never seems to go that way), and can never seem to find somewhere to really 'chat' about it and swap knowledge with other collectors. The tray in question has been a source of mixed emotions for me really! I kind of assumed from the sheer quality and complexity of the chiseled designs that it was rather older than it is. I also thought Arabic was read left to right, so was confused when I tried to translate the date and realised that from left to right it was reading 1312. Still, even if it is 1895, its still antique, and the quality does at least speak for itself. I'm still hoping to get some more information about it if anyone can help. Indian metalwork is more my area, but I couldn't resist this when I had a good look at it. I would be very interested to see some of your stuff, especially the 3 metal pieces. Any info on my tray would also be greatfully received. Best Wishes Gene Last edited by Atlantia; 11th July 2009 at 10:41 AM. |
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13th July 2009, 01:45 PM
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#12 |
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Member
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 935
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Gene, I share your passion. I also think that understanding the concepts of metalwork technigue, quality and beauty of "other" items will help one to understand the similar in respect to weapons, even if the different techniques are used to produce them. The concept of "old" and "new" is something that can be learned by analysing the "tray" and applying it to the scabbard fittings, blade decorations, etc. Certainly it is not a substitute, but a helpful addition to one's knowledgebase.
Just think - is there a person who can produce a similar work as on your tray now. I seriously doubt it:-) Being a 19th century, it is certainly an antique, made most likely in Isfahan, Persia, in Qajari style, which is not specific to only metalwork, but textile (especially Persian carpets!), woodwork, etc. Similarly patterned cartouches/panels are common on Qajar weapons (but in larger proportions, as it is harder to produce on hard steel). I'd be interesting to see similarity of the Qajari, and other styles of weapon decorations, in comparison to other objects. |
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