Keeping on the path to hand cannons.

fernando · 12th July 2009, 10:17 PM

Hi guys,
These two are coming over early next week.
The smaller one has 14 cms length and a 20 mm caliber, and the larger one has 18 cms. length and a 30 mm caliber.
When they arrive, i will see if i can organize reasonable detail images.
I thought however that these provisional pictures i am showing here would be good enough for an opinnion on their 'appeal' and, if possible and as allways, a guess on their estimated age.
Would they still be from the XVI century?

Bitte ?

Fernando.

.

Matchlock · 14th July 2009, 03:25 PM

Hi Fernando,

I guess the Bitte was meant for me ...

It is really hard to discern but these do not seem very early to me: their conical shape with the broad and flat rear section would make them ideal for firing in an upright position.

Furthermore, the surface of the one on the right looks so smooth that it should be checked if it is possibly found iron.

While almost all these barrels kept their traditional Gothic form (octagonal or sometimes hexagonal) for hundreds of years I should attribute these two tentatively to the 18h or 19th century and call them noisemakers.

Again, it is very difficult to tell and I have to resort to a sort of feeling which should by no means impair your having fun with them, though!

Michael

fernando · 14th July 2009, 07:26 PM

Hi Michael,
Yeah, the Bitte was for you

.
You see, you being the expert in this area, i don't know the polite way to ask you personnaly for your precious coments without risking to disencourage other guys to post their remarks.
Thanks a lot for your diagnosis on these two examples. It is true i can't hide some disappointment for them not being older.
Oh well, you can't win 'em all.
When they arrive, tomorrow, i will take some pictures and examine the things with(out) a clinic eye, to check whether they are wrought or found iron, their actual shape and other details. Maybe there is a chance to add some time to their apparent antiquity ?!

.
Fernando

Atlantia · 15th July 2009, 11:06 AM

Hey Nando!
More nice additions to the ever growing collection?
Even if these do turn out to be later than you'd hoped, they are certainly nice additions, and as you seem to have found a 'niche' here with these little bangers, its good to have examples of all types to build a chronology.
How many hand cannons/mortars etc will this take the Fernando total up to?

Regards
Gene

BTW. I like Matchlocks comment about 'having fun with them'. I agree! These look like they'd take a small black powder charge and some wadding

Obvioulsy care would be needed, but it might be a giggle!!

Matchlock · 15th July 2009, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Furthermore, the surface of the one on the right looks so smooth that it should be checked if it is possibly found iron.

It should read cast iron, of course ...

m

fernando · 15th July 2009, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

It should read cast iron, of course ...

m

Understood in the first place; in portuguese is fundido.
Fernando

fernando · 15th July 2009, 06:37 PM

I have tried to take resasonable (?) detailed pictures.
Cast iron they are, of course Michael.
They even look to have come out from the same foundry, judging by their texture and also their relative design.
Their conical profile is rather pronounced, as may be seen in these new pictures, specially the large one.
Their walls are quite thick, their bases are even much more; the large one weighs 7,5 kg.
It could (should) be that they are signal mortars but, within my ignorance, with such walls and bases, they could well be (or serve) on a weapon scheme ... don't ask me which version

.
Say Michael, after these lousy pictures, is that age attribution (XVIII century) a final diagnosis?

.

Fernando.

.

fernando · 15th July 2009, 06:43 PM

The large one

.

fernando · 15th July 2009, 06:45 PM

The small one

.

fernando · 15th July 2009, 09:32 PM

Hi Gene,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

... How many hand cannons/mortars etc will this take the Fernando total up to? ...

A lot more than i thought i would come across with

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

... BTW. I like Matchlocks comment about 'having fun with them'. I agree! These look like they'd take a small black powder charge and some wadding

Obvioulsy care would be needed, but it might be a giggle!!

I wouldn't bang these things myself; but if you want to come over and try them, i'll teach you the way down here

.

Fernando

Matchlock · 16th July 2009, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Say Michael, after these lousy pictures, is that age attribution (XVIII century) a final diagnosis?

.

Fernando.

O sim, mi amigo,

18th/19th century, especially as they are fundido.

Btw, very good images!

The areas around the touch holes of both items seem to have been altered within their working life: while a former pan like moulding seems to have been removed from the larger one, the touch hole of the smaller barrel seems to have been burnt out and consequently reduced in diameter.

If I were you I would fill them up with powder, put a wooden plug in the muzzles and bang away using a slow match to make the sound ring out all over Portugal - if they have not burst so far they certainly won't now! Just imagine them jumping from the recoil!

Best,
Michael

Philip · 22nd July 2009, 08:15 PM

Fernando and Michael,
I agree with the assessment that these interesting things were intended as celebratory noisemakers and not weapons. Look at the larger one, there is a crescent shaped protrusion below the touchhole that looks like a protruding priming pan was broken off. On the smaller one, this is not visible but as has been remarked above, the touchhole has been "bushed" or lined so who knows what was there originally. (or, could what looks like a bushing or liner be the remains of a projecting priming pan which has also been broken off?).

Shooting these with blank charges would be fun! Fernando, just think how you could enliven your local festas with a few shots as the cortejo with all the flags, saints, and candlesticks marches past your house! You know that in the Azores, fireworks are a big thing; one of the biggest producer of fireworks shows for holidays here in California is an Azorean immigrant named de Souza. When I was still in university, in Hawaii, my friends and I had a small brass cannon (from Mexico) whose bore was just big enough to shoot a frankfurter sausage from. On New Years Eve we'd shoot sausages at neighbors houses and cars. Once we tried frozen sausages but decided it was too dangerous.

Now for the cold water -- old metal, especially cast iron, can be brittle and there is always the danger of bursting. I knew this Navy officer who collected lantakas, the Malay bronze swivel cannons. He liked to shoot a couple of his on New Years as well, until one exploded with a blank charge. It fragmented into three sections, one of which flew over his house. His wife laid down the law, no more shooting if he wanted to keep his collection...

fernando · 22nd July 2009, 10:57 PM

Hi Michael

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

O sim, mi amigo,

Your portuguese is visibly improving ... still with a Bavarian accent, though

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

18th/19th century, especially as they are fundido.

I take it that being fundido (cast) is not the unique reason for the (these) pieces being 'modern', and surely other contextual elements must be taken in consideration ... which escapes my unexistant knowledge in the matter. I mean, there were cast iron cannons already by mid XVI century. Obviously this fact alone is not enough to date a piece, but further explanations would be welcome ... so that one may learn some more

.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

If I were you I would fill them up with powder, put a wooden plug in the muzzles and bang away using a slow match to make the sound ring out all over Portugal ...

Watch out for my lack of experience with böllers; i might as well load them with an overdosis and the plug flies over to Bavaria

.

Lots of health
Fernando

fernando · 22nd July 2009, 11:42 PM

Thank you for coming in, dear Philip.
I see that you also sugest i should fire the things with blanks; in this case when the procession comes by, risking to burn the priest's cassock

.
However, i can't help looking at this type of things without attributing them a more bellicose utility.
I have heard versions (i ignore if documented), where they could make a lot of damage, even not loaded with a classic projectile. Like being used in series, to burst strategical spots; or fired under flagstones, or embedded in castle gates, anywhere imagination goes.
Talking of imagination, firing sausages is not a bad number

.
Concerning fireworks over here, we lately hear intense campaings stimulating the end of their use, mainly for safety reasons; every seasons countless accidents occur in the country, with the use (or misuse) of fireworks. I have seen in the TV a little village where they play a record with the noise of fire crackers in the curch tower, to substitute the real thing and possible accidents. How's that?
Best.
Fernando.

Philip · 24th July 2009, 06:08 AM

Dear Fernando,
The use of a wooden plug (even a cork or thick paper wad will do) is useful in short barrels to confine the powder and make a proper explosion. In long, musket length barrels, even that is not necessary. A couple weekends ago I attended a military historical re-enactment festival at an old seacoast fort near my house, and there was a squad of "soldiers" trained and dressed in the manner of the English Civil War doing drills with matchlock muskets. Shooting with blank charges of course. What surprised me is how reliable these weapons can be (so long as it isn't raining!) -- misfires were at a rate of 2% at most, and the troops could discharge a respectable volley, the guns going off almost at once. Even more interesting was that for display purposes, a fairly good speed of fire could be obtained without using wads or plugs, and thus dispensing with the need to deploy, use, and put back the ramrod. Without ramming or wadding, the powder in the bottom of the barrel would explode quite nicely, making an impressive noise. I asked why, for the sake of realism, that they didn't just load a wad and go through the motions of ramming down a real bullet. The "commander" told me that they would do it at a proper shooting-range but in a place with crowds of public around, the risk would be of someone forgetting to remove the ramrod from the barrel, turning his espingarda into a harpoon launcher!

You mentioned an interesting application of the "handgonne" concept in war, to applications which didn't involve pointing it at someone and shooting a bullet. Yes, I've seen reference to fairly large-diameter things resembling the noisemaking Boeller, but used to blow open gates or strong doors. They were called "petards", the weapon was loaded with a suitable charge and fastened with its mouth against the gate. I also have translations of 15th-17th cent. Chinese military manuals which describe all manner of concealed explosive devices, operating under ground or water, some ignited remotely by a complex system of fuses.

I would tend to think that a barrel made to fire vertically upwards would have a priming pan that sticks out laterally, as you see on most Boeller. The larger of your two barrels appears to have the remnants of this feature, as I have pointed out previously.

Re: your comment about the move to outlaw fireworks in Portugal -- what a shame. Of course people get hurt in accidents, but on holidays when everybody's been drinking, they also crash their cars, fall off bicycles, and get into fights. Recorded sounds of firecrackers is no substitute for cannons firing sausages and other follies. Here in the States, most urban areas have banned firecrackers and the use of rockets and Roman candles by the general public. However, by an interesting legal quirk, the reservations on which the remaining tribes of Indians live are considered "sovereign territory" and they write their own rules regarding certain types of fun, such as casino gaming and fireworks. So they make good money from people driving to their territory to buy some impressive pyrotechnic devices. We used to be able to drive over the border to Mexico for the same thing, but the border inspections post-9/11 have spoiled that. It may be illegal to shoot them off at home, but the police can't arrest everybody!

12th July 2009, 10:17 PM	#1
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,638	Keeping on the path to hand cannons. Hi guys, These two are coming over early next week. The smaller one has 14 cms length and a 20 mm caliber, and the larger one has 18 cms. length and a 30 mm caliber. When they arrive, i will see if i can organize reasonable detail images. I thought however that these provisional pictures i am showing here would be good enough for an opinnion on their 'appeal' and, if possible and as allways, a guess on their estimated age. Would they still be from the XVI century? Bitte ? Fernando. . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 12th July 2009 at 10:24 PM. Reason: addition

15th July 2009, 06:43 PM	#8
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,638	The large one . Attached Images

15th July 2009, 06:45 PM	#9
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,638	The small one . Attached Images

22nd July 2009, 08:15 PM	#12
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	shooting old "bangers" Fernando and Michael, I agree with the assessment that these interesting things were intended as celebratory noisemakers and not weapons. Look at the larger one, there is a crescent shaped protrusion below the touchhole that looks like a protruding priming pan was broken off. On the smaller one, this is not visible but as has been remarked above, the touchhole has been "bushed" or lined so who knows what was there originally. (or, could what looks like a bushing or liner be the remains of a projecting priming pan which has also been broken off?). Shooting these with blank charges would be fun! Fernando, just think how you could enliven your local festas with a few shots as the cortejo with all the flags, saints, and candlesticks marches past your house! You know that in the Azores, fireworks are a big thing; one of the biggest producer of fireworks shows for holidays here in California is an Azorean immigrant named de Souza. When I was still in university, in Hawaii, my friends and I had a small brass cannon (from Mexico) whose bore was just big enough to shoot a frankfurter sausage from. On New Years Eve we'd shoot sausages at neighbors houses and cars. Once we tried frozen sausages but decided it was too dangerous. Now for the cold water -- old metal, especially cast iron, can be brittle and there is always the danger of bursting. I knew this Navy officer who collected lantakas, the Malay bronze swivel cannons. He liked to shoot a couple of his on New Years as well, until one exploded with a blank charge. It fragmented into three sections, one of which flew over his house. His wife laid down the law, no more shooting if he wanted to keep his collection...

24th July 2009, 06:08 AM	#15
Philip Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: California Posts: 1,036	blank charges / non-shooting use / fireworks Dear Fernando, The use of a wooden plug (even a cork or thick paper wad will do) is useful in short barrels to confine the powder and make a proper explosion. In long, musket length barrels, even that is not necessary. A couple weekends ago I attended a military historical re-enactment festival at an old seacoast fort near my house, and there was a squad of "soldiers" trained and dressed in the manner of the English Civil War doing drills with matchlock muskets. Shooting with blank charges of course. What surprised me is how reliable these weapons can be (so long as it isn't raining!) -- misfires were at a rate of 2% at most, and the troops could discharge a respectable volley, the guns going off almost at once. Even more interesting was that for display purposes, a fairly good speed of fire could be obtained without using wads or plugs, and thus dispensing with the need to deploy, use, and put back the ramrod. Without ramming or wadding, the powder in the bottom of the barrel would explode quite nicely, making an impressive noise. I asked why, for the sake of realism, that they didn't just load a wad and go through the motions of ramming down a real bullet. The "commander" told me that they would do it at a proper shooting-range but in a place with crowds of public around, the risk would be of someone forgetting to remove the ramrod from the barrel, turning his espingarda into a harpoon launcher! You mentioned an interesting application of the "handgonne" concept in war, to applications which didn't involve pointing it at someone and shooting a bullet. Yes, I've seen reference to fairly large-diameter things resembling the noisemaking Boeller, but used to blow open gates or strong doors. They were called "petards", the weapon was loaded with a suitable charge and fastened with its mouth against the gate. I also have translations of 15th-17th cent. Chinese military manuals which describe all manner of concealed explosive devices, operating under ground or water, some ignited remotely by a complex system of fuses. I would tend to think that a barrel made to fire vertically upwards would have a priming pan that sticks out laterally, as you see on most Boeller. The larger of your two barrels appears to have the remnants of this feature, as I have pointed out previously. Re: your comment about the move to outlaw fireworks in Portugal -- what a shame. Of course people get hurt in accidents, but on holidays when everybody's been drinking, they also crash their cars, fall off bicycles, and get into fights. Recorded sounds of firecrackers is no substitute for cannons firing sausages and other follies. Here in the States, most urban areas have banned firecrackers and the use of rockets and Roman candles by the general public. However, by an interesting legal quirk, the reservations on which the remaining tribes of Indians live are considered "sovereign territory" and they write their own rules regarding certain types of fun, such as casino gaming and fireworks. So they make good money from people driving to their territory to buy some impressive pyrotechnic devices. We used to be able to drive over the border to Mexico for the same thing, but the border inspections post-9/11 have spoiled that. It may be illegal to shoot them off at home, but the police can't arrest everybody!

14th July 2009, 03:25 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Fernando, I guess the Bitte was meant for me ... It is really hard to discern but these do not seem very early to me: their conical shape with the broad and flat rear section would make them ideal for firing in an upright position. Furthermore, the surface of the one on the right looks so smooth that it should be checked if it is possibly found iron. While almost all these barrels kept their traditional Gothic form (octagonal or sometimes hexagonal) for hundreds of years I should attribute these two tentatively to the 18h or 19th century and call them noisemakers. Again, it is very difficult to tell and I have to resort to a sort of feeling which should by no means impair your having fun with them, though! Michael

14th July 2009, 07:26 PM	#3
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,638	Hi Michael, Yeah, the Bitte was for you . You see, you being the expert in this area, i don't know the polite way to ask you personnaly for your precious coments without risking to disencourage other guys to post their remarks. Thanks a lot for your diagnosis on these two examples. It is true i can't hide some disappointment for them not being older. Oh well, you can't win 'em all. When they arrive, tomorrow, i will take some pictures and examine the things with(out) a clinic eye, to check whether they are wrought or found iron, their actual shape and other details. Maybe there is a chance to add some time to their apparent antiquity ?! . Fernando

15th July 2009, 11:06 AM	#4
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hey Nando! More nice additions to the ever growing collection? Even if these do turn out to be later than you'd hoped, they are certainly nice additions, and as you seem to have found a 'niche' here with these little bangers, its good to have examples of all types to build a chronology. How many hand cannons/mortars etc will this take the Fernando total up to? Regards Gene BTW. I like Matchlocks comment about 'having fun with them'. I agree! These look like they'd take a small black powder charge and some wadding Obvioulsy care would be needed, but it might be a giggle!!

15th July 2009, 06:37 PM	#7
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,638	I have tried to take resasonable (?) detailed pictures. Cast iron they are, of course Michael. They even look to have come out from the same foundry, judging by their texture and also their relative design. Their conical profile is rather pronounced, as may be seen in these new pictures, specially the large one. Their walls are quite thick, their bases are even much more; the large one weighs 7,5 kg. It could (should) be that they are signal mortars but, within my ignorance, with such walls and bases, they could well be (or serve) on a weapon scheme ... don't ask me which version . Say Michael, after these lousy pictures, is that age attribution (XVIII century) a final diagnosis? . Fernando. .

22nd July 2009, 11:42 PM	#14
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,638	Thank you for coming in, dear Philip. I see that you also sugest i should fire the things with blanks; in this case when the procession comes by, risking to burn the priest's cassock . However, i can't help looking at this type of things without attributing them a more bellicose utility. I have heard versions (i ignore if documented), where they could make a lot of damage, even not loaded with a classic projectile. Like being used in series, to burst strategical spots; or fired under flagstones, or embedded in castle gates, anywhere imagination goes. Talking of imagination, firing sausages is not a bad number . Concerning fireworks over here, we lately hear intense campaings stimulating the end of their use, mainly for safety reasons; every seasons countless accidents occur in the country, with the use (or misuse) of fireworks. I have seen in the TV a little village where they play a record with the noise of fire crackers in the curch tower, to substitute the real thing and possible accidents. How's that? Best. Fernando.