Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 27th March 2019, 10:31 PM   #1
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 4,637
Default Need opinions on walrus ivory slabs

Help me out.
Recently. I read in a publication that Persian shamshir handle slabs made out of walrus ivory were classically installed with the smooth cementum and primary dentin adjacent to the tang and with the "oatmeal-like" secondary dentin on the outside. Allegedly, the " oatmeal" structure was considered to be beneficial to the sword owner for some sacral reasons..
Further, the author stated that the frequently found reverse position of the slabs ( "oatmeal" inside) is a sure sign of late replacement.
I could never find any supportive reference to this statement.
Anybody saw or heard something to confirm it?
Attached Images
 

Last edited by ariel : 27th March 2019 at 11:13 PM.
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th March 2019, 10:35 PM   #2
Kubur
Member
 
Kubur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,622
Default

Hi Ariel,

I think it's true but not everywhere.
In Iran for sure, i have a dagger like this (secondary dentine) and I've seen many examples.
In the Ottoman world I'm not sure about this statement...


Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 27th March 2019, 11:57 PM   #3
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 4,637
Default

Yes, we do see examples of the "oatmeal" side on the outside.
But I am not talking about single examples here or there: I am asking whether there was a systematic, traditional, old way. Any sources to confirm or reject the statement of the author?
I am plainly ignorant about that and want to learn something.. Personally, I think that it depended on the piece of tusk.

I have two Balkan yataghans with massive ears: the primary dentin is the grip, the ears have secondary dentin inside and primary dentin around it: the master needed a whole-thickness tusk to form massive ears.

But shamshirs have slender grips, they could slabs positioned either way.

And here comes the rub:
Was there a "right" way for a slab?

I am waxing poetic:-)))
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th March 2019, 08:54 PM   #4
Ren Ren
Member
 
Ren Ren's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Russia, Moscow
Posts: 91
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
Help me out.
Recently. I read in a publication that Persian shamshir handle slabs made out of walrus ivory were classically installed with the smooth cementum and primary dentin adjacent to the tang and with the "oatmeal-like" secondary dentin on the outside. Allegedly, the " oatmeal" structure was considered to be beneficial to the sword owner for some sacral reasons..
Further, the author stated that the frequently found reverse position of the slabs ( "oatmeal" inside) is a sure sign of late replacement.

There is an alternative version. In Iran and India, where walrus tusks were valued higher than elephant fangs, the masters tried to demonstrate the inner part of the dentin. Because the inner part of the tusk indicates that it belonged to the walrus. In the Caucasus, they did the opposite, demonstrated the external part. Because there were no walrus tusks in short supply.
Ren Ren is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th March 2019, 11:21 PM   #5
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 4,637
Default

Nice hypothesis.
But I would note the following:

1. Walrus ivory was imported directly to Persia from Shirvan( Baku) and Astrakhan . The latter was also augmented by Indian traders who maintained large permanent missions there and then re-sold furs and walrus ivory to Iran. Thus, there was no scarcity of this material in Persia as witnessed by multiple examples of sword and dagger handles.

2. Examination of shamshirs from large collections shows very high proportion of the “oatmeal inside” slabs. See Khorasani’s book, Polish collections, Hales’ book, Kamil Khaidakov’s book “ Persian sabers”, catalogues of large auctions etc. Does it mean that all such handles went through restoration?
And that leads us to the next question:
3. If the traditional old ( sacral?) scheme was “ oatmeal outside”, why would not restorers maintain it? Why would they, according to the assertion of the author of that hypothesis, have suddenly and en masse put the slabs in reverse? After all, technically it would have been just as easy to maintain traditional order.
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 11:31 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.