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Old 24th March 2019, 02:19 PM   #1
corrado26
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Default Translation please

Is there anybody here able to translate the script on the blade of this sabre?
Many thanks!!
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Old 24th March 2019, 07:54 PM   #2
Battara
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According to the rules, you need to show pics of the whole thing first before anything can happen.
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Old 24th March 2019, 08:23 PM   #3
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One of the best Ottoman military sword that i saw.
Is the hilt full silver?

Kubur
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Old 24th March 2019, 08:45 PM   #4
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With respect, if this is the best you have seen to me it appears rather poor. I am not a specialist in this area but it is not fine work. However production can depend on many circumstances such as war where art standards are not the main aim.
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Old 25th March 2019, 07:45 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Battara
According to the rules, you need to show pics of the whole thing first before anything can happen.


Sorry, as the sabre is the property of a friend I have no better fotos. Hope these two fotos will help!
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Old 25th March 2019, 09:27 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Simmons
With respect, if this is the best you have seen to me it appears rather poor. I am not a specialist in this area but it is not fine work. However production can depend on many circumstances such as war where art standards are not the main aim.


I noticed that many forum members are passive agressive, it's not necessary.
I can have an easy answer (like Ariel) "please show us better examples"
I suspect that the mounts and hilt are full silver with proof marks (and thughra) and the blade is really good too with a nice inscription.
Mine is not good as this one and many military swords published are not good as this one (the guard is dammaged unfortunately).
So please show us better examples.

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Old 25th March 2019, 03:31 PM   #7
Jim McDougall
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It seems to me this is indeed a sabre intended for a military officer, and the blade is perhaps older than the mounts as it has interesting deep fullering. The mounts are of course in Ottoman style and heavily silver clad. While not of perhaps of the highest quality, I am wondering if this work might be from a more remote region in the Ottoman influenced sphere. It would seem that if in more directly controlled area, such work would carry a hallmark.

What I think is most notable on the scabbard is the carry mounts, which are situated in the manner found on Caucasian shashkas. The device on the blade, while mindful of Ottoman tughra, appears to be intended in that sense, but not following typical convention.

It would be good to see this interesting inscribed cartouche translated, if nothing else to determine the language used. While I am not saying this sword is Russian, it reminds me of instances of 'trophy' blades mounted in their cultural sphere.
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Old 25th March 2019, 05:10 PM   #8
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Hi Jim

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
I am wondering if this work might be from a more remote region in the Ottoman influenced sphere.


Absolutely not, it's the opposite, good work from Itanbul Constantinople


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
What I think is most notable on the scabbard is the carry mounts, which are situated in the manner found on Caucasian shashkas.


It's typical from this style of Ottoman Turkish swords
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Old 25th March 2019, 05:13 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
The device on the blade, while mindful of Ottoman tughra, appears to be intended in that sense, but not following typical convention.
.


Really, I'm not sure about that. It's typical to me.
I don't know how you can say that...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
I
it reminds me of instances of 'trophy' blades mounted in their cultural sphere.


Finally one point where we agree
This kind of sword has very often trophy blades, very often from Caucasian shashka or others
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Old 25th March 2019, 05:43 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur
Really, I'm not sure about that. It's typical to me.
I don't know how you can say that...




Finally one point where we agree
This kind of sword has very often trophy blades, very often from Caucasian shashka or others




Kubur, I am extremely pleased that we have 'one' point of agreement! I cannot resist feeling a sense of triumph. There are of course instances of trophy blades in many swords but Russian ones I have seen come to mind here, with what seems to be perhaps an East European blade.


On the tughra, I think we have here a matter of Rorschach perspective.

While these symbolic devices used as personal seals and monogram or heraldic emblems, which have long Turkic history, are regarded as Ottoman, they were widely used in other cases in degree following the Ottoman style.


In looking at the systemic dynamics of the 'tughra', which to me always looked a bit like an amoeba (in a sense, and leaning toward the psychological context of course, as per Rorschach).......this device does not seem to follow 'tughra' conventions'.

Perhaps this was how I might have said what you may have regarded as tughra heresy and why I thought since this sword seemed 'out of direct Ottoman sphere' the device might be a variant recalling the tughra.


Obviously I do not share your expertise on these, so I hope you might enlighten me (and others reading) on the spectrum of tughra variants which are outside the set patterns I have attached.


Also attached is the device on the sword posted which looks more like an 'ace of clubs' in the playing card suit system.
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Old 25th March 2019, 05:51 PM   #11
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Hi Jim,

You will be happy: I dont see any tughra on this blade... do you?

You have more imagination than me!

I was talking about the real tughras on the silver...
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Old 25th March 2019, 07:02 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kubur
Hi Jim,

You will be happy: I dont see any tughra on this blade... do you?

You have more imagination than me!

I was talking about the real tughras on the silver...



Ahah!!! We have the dreaded miscommunication I thought you were talking about the device on the blade as I had mentioned it did not look like a typical tughra.......so agreed, I dont see a 'conventional' tughra.

Now you are pointing out these features in the motif of the silvered material, which I think you might be regarding as 'hallmarks' (?) not tughras, am I correct? I cannot make them out (old eyes). I had not thought of tughras being placed as part of decorative motif in a hilt.

It is often hard communicating these things in specialized terms and phrases which are essentially foreign (at least to me) so thank you for patience in getting on the same page.
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Old 25th March 2019, 07:20 PM   #13
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I do not mean to be aggressive in anyway . Hyping up poor quality really serves no good. It stunts development , research , learning and worst of all art appreciation. Sorry if that sounds hard but do you really want to push prices up for lesser work.
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Old 25th March 2019, 07:28 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Simmons
I do not mean to be aggressive in anyway . Hyping up poor quality really serves no good. It stunts development , research , learning and worst of all art appreciation. Sorry if that sounds hard but do you really want to push prices up for lesser work.


Tim, are you rating the quality of the silver work on this sword compared to other late 19th century Ottoman military swords, or against master pieces of silversmiths from around the world and of all ages?
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Old 25th March 2019, 08:06 PM   #15
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I this case the craftsmanship, laying out and technique of execution of the overall design. The formal layout out of the floral motifs on the cross guard are rather rough and the some what better floral motifs in the centre are poorly bordered. Work is governed by many circumstances , environments, technologies and cultures . I also mentioned war as a disruptive force on manufacturing. However having in mind the origins of this piece and the fact that silver a material with trappings of status the work is poor. A person could write volumes on art and function, art society and culture. For us looking and research is best. This is an okay sword with okay-ish decoration just because it is silver does not make poor work good.
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Old 25th March 2019, 08:14 PM   #16
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So clearly it was a general comment, please have look at books on Ottoman silver work then we can compare and discuss...
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Old 25th March 2019, 08:19 PM   #17
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Actually I had not even considered monetary issues or those kinds of values myself, and naturally I cannot speak for others. My only concern was that the quality or lack thereof may be related to the work of artisans working in regions outside the main centers, whose skills and tools might be of lesser degree. This would be a factor in estimating the age, provenance and other matters in identifying the weapon.

I know that with colonial weapons there are obvious issues with quality, materials and workmanship not to mention components used in refurbishing which are not necessarily compatible aesthetically. Such items have certain inherent values historically which of course do not coincide with valuation of discerning collectors typically.


As Teodor has well noted, comparisons must be specified categorically to better understand the relevance of the observation.
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Old 25th March 2019, 08:56 PM   #18
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Ahem, do we have any Arabic reader here who can oblige the original post and translate the writing on the blade? It might not even be real Arabic. It could be imaginary pseudo-Arabic as seen on some Hungarian ”trophy” blades in Ottoman style. Also, is the Roman style arms and armour trophy stand engraving on the hilt common on Ottoman arms? I thought Islamic art typically is abstract or geometric. Hungary on the other hand likes to use Roman imagery as it was once the Roman province of Pannonia. Seems to me that Jim is not far off the mark (no pun intended!)
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Old 25th March 2019, 10:33 PM   #19
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Personally, I see nothing Russian or Caucasian here. IMHO ,this is a garden variety Ottoman officer 19-20 century sword with perhaps a “blingy” silver handle ( or just silver plated). The inscription is most likely in old Turkish that is unreadable by modern Turks : at least half a dozen of my colleagues from Turkey and their highly educated kin in Turkey just shrugged their shoulders. Perhaps, a university professor of old Ottoman might be of help.

Decorative style is not informative: most decorated Ottoman swords of that period were embellished in “Turkish Baroque” style. And if it’s ain’t Baroque, don’t fix it:-)
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Old 26th March 2019, 08:40 AM   #20
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Well, then it could be just about anything... Regarding Ottoman Trophy of Arms, I found this in Wiki ”Every sultan of the Ottoman Empire had his own monogram, called the tughra, which served as a royal symbol. A coat of arms in the European heraldic sense was created in the late 19th century. Hampton Court requested from the Ottoman Empire the coat of arms to be included in their collection. As the coat of arms had not been previously used in the Ottoman Empire, it was designed after this request, and the final design was adopted by Sultan Abdul Hamid II on 17 April 1882.” See picture attached. Something like this could be engraved on the hilt. The engraving at the top of the trophy of arms on the hilt could just be a tughra?
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Old 26th March 2019, 11:00 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Victrix
Well, then it could be just about anything... Regarding Ottoman Trophy of Arms, I found this in Wiki ”Every sultan of the Ottoman Empire had his own monogram, called the tughra, which served as a royal symbol. A coat of arms in the European heraldic sense was created in the late 19th century. Hampton Court requested from the Ottoman Empire the coat of arms to be included in their collection. As the coat of arms had not been previously used in the Ottoman Empire, it was designed after this request, and the final design was adopted by Sultan Abdul Hamid II on 17 April 1882.” See picture attached. Something like this could be engraved on the hilt. The engraving at the top of the trophy of arms on the hilt could just be a tughra?


Of course it is!
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Old 26th March 2019, 11:01 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
Decorative style is not informative: most decorated Ottoman swords of that period were embellished in “Turkish Baroque” style. And if it’s ain’t Baroque, don’t fix it:-)


Yes it's baroque Ariel again right - OMG - you are the new guru...
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Old 26th March 2019, 05:03 PM   #23
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Guys, I am amazed!! You really got this figured out perfectly.
Ariel, your 'baroque' thing was priceless!!!!
So Kubur, now I see the tughra in that uh, decorative web on the guard. I completely missed it .

While we know this is Ottoman and 19th c. what about those curious hanging mounts on the scabbard, distinctly like those on latter 19th c shashka scabbard. I cant think of another use of those mounts, I thought Ottomans used the European type dual rings .
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Old 26th March 2019, 08:53 PM   #24
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Jim,
Caucasian shashkas were worn edge up. Here hanging rings are located on the concave side of the scabbard: this sword was worn edge down.
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Old 26th March 2019, 10:06 PM   #25
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Yep
look and please look at the silver hilt much more simple than the one posted
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Old 27th March 2019, 02:44 AM   #26
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It is simpler, but at least it has intact langets:-)
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Old 27th March 2019, 01:45 PM   #27
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You guys crack me up. 25 posts later and Victrix is the only one who so much as even addressed the one question Corrado actually asked about this sword. I mean, i know we don't want anything to get in the way of everyone taking their usual snipes at each other, but can anyone translate the script on the blade or is it perhaps as Vic suggested, just pseudo-Arabic? Anyone?
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Old 27th March 2019, 03:58 PM   #28
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Actually it is quite true that Victrix has a very astutely suggested observation toward the translation in gold on the blade, in that it may well be a faux Arabic lettering as has been known in not only Hungarian but other European swords of this kind of representative character.

While it seems clear that none of us participating are linguists, above all myself, we all agree that this sword posted by Corrado is an intriguing example and the ensuing 'discussion' that has so tickled David is actually some pretty interesting and constructive interaction which is keenly pertinent.

Although no linguistically skilled reader has stepped forward as requested, those of us here have tried to determine the possible origin and period of the sword in hopes of finding the context which might assess the language (or lack thereof) of the inscription.
This is the very reason we have always asked for a picture of the entire weapon rather than simply the inscription alone.

The discussion became a constructive analysis of the sword pictured by Corrado rather than the often dismal avoidance and lack of entries encountered by readers who altogether too often feel they have nothing to add. I have always greatly appreciated the sometimes lengthy development of a topic in a thread which adds to the context and scope concerning a weapon in discussion, even if wavering from a specific question.

On that note, Ariel, I do understand that two carry rings in European scabbard manner dictate the sword worn edge down.....however this example in the OP, has this carry ring at center of scabbard throat, as in Caucasian manner seen on shashkas as I mentioned. The other carry ring is on the side of the scabbard . The sabre posted by Kubur just previous shows carry rings on the side as you describe and interestingly has an inscription much in the manner of the OP sword and question.


Meanwhile, I do hope that the inscription might be translated by a reader who reads these types of lettering.
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Old 27th March 2019, 10:30 PM   #29
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You get some odd scripts on Islamic blades of the 19th 20th centuries I am trying to remember the term, possibly "Thuluth", it turns up a lot on Mahdist's swords... Could this be a retro-script on a captured Turkish sword.
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Old 28th March 2019, 12:39 AM   #30
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That's a good suggestion David, and you're right there do seem to be some unusual scripts used in Islamic context. The 'thuluth' you mention used on Mahdist swords is actually found as well in Mamluk metalwork and typically bold characters which are acid etched. As I say I am far from being even close to any linguistic skills, but unsure this would qualify.

I tried looking into other scripts and found Perso-Arabic script for the Tajik language, which was used in Uzbekistan, Kazakstan, Kyrgyzstan, Russia, Turkmenistan. Ukraine and Afghanistan and surely others where this people locate. Ottoman presence and influence was remarkably wide of course, which is why we have tried to consider these regions to find close match to the inscription.


While not a match perhaps, it might be a script which influenced that in this inscription if is is indeed not in an exact language, but then the range would widen greatly. All we can do is try at this point until we get a response from someone who recognizes this.
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