Hilt Identification

A. G. Maisey · 5th May 2024, 01:35 AM

Ian, I do acknowledge that it would be desirable for the entire dagger to be presented, but this would be both unethical & in contravention of Forum rules. Additionally, it would not assist in the slightest degree in providing a response to my question.

I did not request an opinion on the entire object, only on the hilt, & and as you note, my question was precise. I apologise for the nature of my question, but in this case that is what I need, I already know where & when it was acquired and where it has been for the last 100 years or so.

The blade is ancient, & very probably would have been pusaka, the blade has nothing at all to do with the hilt, nor does the scabbard, except that it was used in assembling the dagger. I am already quite confident that the entire piece is associated with the dominant forces in the East Indies during the time it was created.

The only thing that puzzles me is the place of origin of the hilt.

The quality of carving in the hilt is high & it is typical of elements common in a number of places in today's Indonesia.

The entire dagger is late colonial period & probably after +/- 1880.

Yes, I agree with your comment on inter cultural influence, & in respect of the old East Indies, this is a very common element that stretches over a few hundred years.

GIO · 6th May 2024, 08:18 AM

I am convinced thay such hilt would not cut a bad figure on a talibong, but I m open to any opinionby from more evperts on the Forum, who are better informed and experienced.
Best regards Gio

A. G. Maisey · 6th May 2024, 08:28 AM

Thank you for your contribution GIO, but this dagger is quite small, not really talibong size.

Interested Party · 6th May 2024, 03:25 PM

I noticed the planar form right off the bat. My question is have you identified the wood and used that to narrow the search? Not that nice wood isn't a trade good, but it would be a place to start.

A. G. Maisey · 7th May 2024, 02:34 AM

Thank you for your thoughts IP, but for the style and period that would be irrelevant.

For items of rural style & lower quality it might be relevant, but not for something like this little dagger.

I've already got a pretty good start, what I need is that very rare thing:- some specific knowledge of the design motif used in the hilt pommel.

Only that.

Interested Party · 7th May 2024, 05:35 PM

I guess my personal quirk is that I like to know the species woods used and what motifs represent, particularly when they are vegetative and esoteric beliefs.

I wish you luck on your search. Sorry I do not have any information for you. Maybe someday we will know what this item is and looks like if it is not too personal. Thanks for an interesting topic as always

-ip

A. G. Maisey · 7th May 2024, 09:33 PM

Motifs I do have high interest in, woods not so much. This is perhaps due to my principal interest being in Jawa & Bali, & Jawa has used imported woods for many years and until the present. Knowing the tree that wood comes from does not contribute to the knowledge of the item in a socio-cultural context, unless it is a local wood that does have some esoteric aspect associated with it.

The overarching principle is that it is the overall impression created by the appearance & the way in which the material has been worked that does count.

5th May 2024, 01:35 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,736	Ian, I do acknowledge that it would be desirable for the entire dagger to be presented, but this would be both unethical & in contravention of Forum rules. Additionally, it would not assist in the slightest degree in providing a response to my question. I did not request an opinion on the entire object, only on the hilt, & and as you note, my question was precise. I apologise for the nature of my question, but in this case that is what I need, I already know where & when it was acquired and where it has been for the last 100 years or so. The blade is ancient, & very probably would have been pusaka, the blade has nothing at all to do with the hilt, nor does the scabbard, except that it was used in assembling the dagger. I am already quite confident that the entire piece is associated with the dominant forces in the East Indies during the time it was created. The only thing that puzzles me is the place of origin of the hilt. The quality of carving in the hilt is high & it is typical of elements common in a number of places in today's Indonesia. The entire dagger is late colonial period & probably after +/- 1880. Yes, I agree with your comment on inter cultural influence, & in respect of the old East Indies, this is a very common element that stretches over a few hundred years.

6th May 2024, 08:18 AM	#2
GIO Member Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 313	I am convinced thay such hilt would not cut a bad figure on a talibong, but I m open to any opinionby from more evperts on the Forum, who are better informed and experienced. Best regards Gio

6th May 2024, 08:28 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,736	Thank you for your contribution GIO, but this dagger is quite small, not really talibong size.

6th May 2024, 03:25 PM	#4
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 392	I noticed the planar form right off the bat. My question is have you identified the wood and used that to narrow the search? Not that nice wood isn't a trade good, but it would be a place to start.

7th May 2024, 02:34 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,736	Thank you for your thoughts IP, but for the style and period that would be irrelevant. For items of rural style & lower quality it might be relevant, but not for something like this little dagger. I've already got a pretty good start, what I need is that very rare thing:- some specific knowledge of the design motif used in the hilt pommel. Only that.

7th May 2024, 05:35 PM	#6
Interested Party Member Join Date: Dec 2019 Location: Eastern Sierra Posts: 392	I guess my personal quirk is that I like to know the species woods used and what motifs represent, particularly when they are vegetative and esoteric beliefs. I wish you luck on your search. Sorry I do not have any information for you. Maybe someday we will know what this item is and looks like if it is not too personal. Thanks for an interesting topic as always -ip

7th May 2024, 09:33 PM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,736	Motifs I do have high interest in, woods not so much. This is perhaps due to my principal interest being in Jawa & Bali, & Jawa has used imported woods for many years and until the present. Knowing the tree that wood comes from does not contribute to the knowledge of the item in a socio-cultural context, unless it is a local wood that does have some esoteric aspect associated with it. The overarching principle is that it is the overall impression created by the appearance & the way in which the material has been worked that does count.