Are you kidding me, "no bull?"

drac2k · 12th August 2016, 01:53 PM

After much deliberation, I feel compelled to write this thread ; I do so because of my great respect for this forum.
I wish to state that I am not trying to embarrass anyone(other than myself),especially the moderators, who do a thankless job very well, however in the case of Vandoo's post on bullfighting weapons,I feel they made a mistake by ending it.
I believe very strongly that the stoppage of Vandoo's very informative thread, based on complaints from several forum members about animal cruelty was extremely hypocritical on their part.We discuss weapons that fillet, flay, slice, dice, slash, cut, mince, smash, bash, crush, execute, impale, and shot humans ; can we not elaborate on the historical aspects of this practice with a bull?Will we be banned from postings of shields made from animal hides, daggers with handles of bone, ivory, or horn, sheaths made of leather or lizard skin and so on?This is a dangerous precedent that you embark on and as such, could destroy the forum.
Next,can we discounted a practice that dates back at least 4000 years by the Minoans and other ancient cultures and still exercised in Spanish, Portuguese, Central and South America countries and as I have recently learned, thanks to this post in some Middle Eastern places as well.We may not like the "sport," but do we have the audacity to tell millions of people that they are wrong and we are right ?
Finally,if there are those who find a certain thread objectionable, please do what I do ;don't open it and don't read it, but I would not want other's freedoms to read it curtailed, based upon my opinions!
In conclusion, I have only written the above based on the demands of my conscience and the respect for the members of this forum.

Roland_M · 12th August 2016, 02:27 PM

If I think about what we do with cattles in intensive mass animal farming or in the slaughter houses, the antipathy against bull fighting seems a little bit of hypocrisy to me.

A bull fighting bull will be treated much better in his life time, than intensive mass animal farming cattle.

Sajen · 12th August 2016, 03:04 PM

"Show" fights between humans against humans, human against animal and animal against animal you will find in nearly all places of the world. It is obvious that this is justified by the primary instinct of the human beeing.
Some of this show fights seems to some people very barbarous, myself included. Take for example the cock fight in South-East-Asia. It's the same with the bulls in Spain, the cocks have a very nice life, they get every time when the time of the owner it allows a massage and the best food. The fights I've watched but don't like it but when you want to understand "Indonesians" in an ethnograhic backround it's important to have seen such cock fights.
IMVHO it have to do with Ethnograhic when the used weapons for bull fights where shown here and there is no need to love this bull fights. I also don't like them but I also don't want to have stayed byside when a human get killed with one of my weapons I've collected.

Ian · 12th August 2016, 04:03 PM

Gents, I appreciate that there are various opinions on this subject. However, the question must be asked: What does this have to do with ethnographic weapons? Please do not escalate further what is essentially a peripheral and irrelevant discussion about the so-called sport of bullfighting.

drac2k · 12th August 2016, 04:33 PM

First, let me thank you for allowing me to post my differing opinion.Please note that there weren't any posts glorifying "bullfighting;"had the thread continued, I'm sure that some of the cruel aspects of this"sport," would have been portrayed, which might have swayed more against it.
In regards to the discussion of the weapons of this trade being "irrelevant,"I think it to be no less so than the Ram Dao, or other sacrificial swords.

Rick · 12th August 2016, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drac2k

First, let me thank you for allowing me to post my differing opinion.Please note that there weren't any posts glorifying "bullfighting;"had the thread continued, I'm sure that some of the cruel aspects of this"sport," would have been portrayed, which might have swayed more against it.
In regards to the discussion of the weapons of this trade being "irrelevant,"I think it to be no less so than the Ram Dao, or other sacrificial swords.

I think it would have been better to take this to the staff.

I believe we have been down the Bullfighting Weapons road more than once in the 15 odd years I have been involved here.
That road always leads downhill.

Jim McDougall · 13th August 2016, 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drac2k

After much deliberation, I feel compelled to write this thread ; I do so because of my great respect for this forum.
I wish to state that I am not trying to embarrass anyone(other than myself),especially the moderators, who do a thankless job very well, however in the case of Vandoo's post on bullfighting weapons,I feel they made a mistake by ending it.
I believe very strongly that the stoppage of Vandoo's very informative thread, based on complaints from several forum members about animal cruelty was extremely hypocritical on their part.We discuss weapons that fillet, flay, slice, dice, slash, cut, mince, smash, bash, crush, execute, impale, and shot humans ; can we not elaborate on the historical aspects of this practice with a bull?Will we be banned from postings of shields made from animal hides, daggers with handles of bone, ivory, or horn, sheaths made of leather or lizard skin and so on?This is a dangerous precedent that you embark on and as such, could destroy the forum.
Next,can we discounted a practice that dates back at least 4000 years by the Minoans and other ancient cultures and still exercised in Spanish, Portuguese, Central and South America countries and as I have recently learned, thanks to this post in some Middle Eastern places as well.We may not like the "sport," but do we have the audacity to tell millions of people that they are wrong and we are right ?
Finally,if there are those who find a certain thread objectionable, please do what I do ;don't open it and don't read it, but I would not want other's freedoms to read it curtailed, based upon my opinions!
In conclusion, I have only written the above based on the demands of my conscience and the respect for the members of this forum.

Drac2,
I very much appreciate your well written and well thought out appeal here, and very much understand your concerns. While these matters are best handled privately and directly posed to the moderators, I would like to note that there has been considerable dialogue on this thread and the topic of bullfighting among staff as well as certainly with you guys.

In the many years here, this very topic has been brought up before, and unfortunately resulted in like circumstances, as it seems too many members cannot set aside the rather understandable emotive reactions. This was the reason I wanted to express my concerns on the original thread in hopes of keeping to the subject of the weapons alone, and to leave the rest of the obvious controversy on the bullfighting issues out of discussion.

This is a discussion forum, and we have fantastic dialogue that reveals a great deal on weapons and the cultural and historical aspects. I must admit that my lifelong passion for the study of weapons history, I have always rather turned a blind eye to their inherent purpose and focused on their character as far as decoration, markings, style etc. They are to me material culture, and seen as that alone, without augmentation as purposed for death, battle and such.

In our pages, I think of course that we should have the latitude to use good judgement in presenting arms which we have interest in and wish to learn more about . I have an interest in these very bullfight swords as I have long studied Spanish swords, and these happen to be one of the more esoteric groups in the spectrum. Actually, these very swords are found in various reference books among other weapons, and have even come into consideration in certain studies of swords evaluated in further design issues for military use, a most surprising and unusual case.

With that very perspective in mind, I think that if the discussion would remain objective and focused, on historical aspects of the swords and/or knives and examples as applicable, leaving out graphic and dramatic analysis of their use.....we might have grounds for continuing the discussion.

I have seen this very topic on these swords attempted in discussion on other forums over the years, with the same resultant disruptive oratories and heated debates ending in arguments and regrettable ends .

I think our membership and readers can handle this topic objectively, staying to the weapons alone, avoiding the other issues surrounding their actual use. I think the comments here reveal that character among you, that unpleasant aspects that one finds disturbing can simply be avoided.
I very much applaud and respect the solidarity and respect among all of us.

Having said that, I would ask that any issues such as this needing attention and concerning moderator action or forum business be channeled privately in the future.

Thank you guys!

Jim

PS David we crossed posts

VANDOO · 13th August 2016, 02:39 AM

THE PERSONAL VIEWS OF BOTH SIDES SHOULD BE CONSIDERED OPENLY BY THE MODERATORS. ONE SIDE GOT THE TOPIC CLOSED EASILY AND SOON IT WILL BE BURIED AND FORGOTTEN AS USUALLY HAPPENS WITH LOCKED THREADS. FOR THE VIEWS OF OTHERS TO BE CONSIDERED CRYING AND MOANING AND THAT THESE VIEWS SHOULD BE KEPT TO ONES SELF BOTHERS ME.
YES I DID READ ALL OF THE MODERATORS POST AND I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN SUPPORTIVE OF MODERATORS AND THE THANKLESS JOB THEY DO. BUT IN THIS WORLD I HAVE SEEN THE TAIL WAGGING THE DOG IN TOO MANY CASES AND I FEAR THE FEW WHO PUSH FOR A P.C. WORLD WHERE THEY DECIDE WHAT IS P.C. AND WHAT IS NOT. THEY HAVE HAD TOO MUCH SUCCESS ON TOO MANY FRONTS IN TODAY'S WORLD AND I WOULD LIKE TO KEEP THAT ATTITUDE AT BAY ON THESE FORUMS.
THESE SAME FOLKS WON A VICTORY WITH THE IVORY LAWS THAT BAN EVERYTHING FROM MAMMOTH TO ANTIQUES AND OLD BOOTS. NO ELEPHANTS SAVED BUT MUCH HAS BEEN AND WILL BE DESTROYED AND RESOURCES AND ART WASTED. THESE FOLKS ARE POWERFUL ALTHOUGH THEY ARE RELATIVELY FEW BUT THEY WORK HARD TO ACHIEVE THEIR GOALS GOOD OR BAD. I AM A ZOOLOGIST, NATURALIST AND HAVE WORKED WITH AND FED BABY ELEPHANTS AND ADULTS. I LOVE CRITTERS BUT I AM ALSO PRACTICAL AND REALISTIC IN MY VIEWS SO AM NOT A BAD PERSON WHO CARES LITTLE ABOUT ANIMALS. I PUT THIS IN BEFORE I CAN BE TRASHED AS AN ANIMAL HATER. THAT'S ENOUGH AND I GIVE UP SOB , MOAN WOE IS ME.

THREAD CLOSED.

Robert · 13th August 2016, 02:45 AM

Wait a minute there little buckaroo, I am just about to reopen the original thread. So dry those tears and please don't make me sorry that I did.

Best,
Robert

VANDOO · 13th August 2016, 07:19 AM

GOOD ON YOU MATE AS THEY SAY IN OZ AND I SAY IN OKLAHOMA. ITS UNFORTUNATE WE HAD TO GO THRU ALL OF THIS ESPECIALLY AS I HAD ALREADY POSTED ALL I HAD ON THE SUBJECT. PERHAPS SOMEONE MAY HAVE MORE TO ADD BUT I SUSPECT THIS SUBJECT WOULD HAVE DIED ON ITS OWN WITHOUT ALL THE DRAMA. I DO TRY AND STAY ON SUBJECT AND NOT MAKE A FUSS BUT AT TIMES IT CAN BECOME NECESSARY. I DO VALUE THIS FORUM AND THINK IT IS BECOMING AN IMPORTANT RESOURCE. AS I BELONG TO NO OTHERS I WISH IT TO CONTINUE TO GROW AND PROSPER SO IF I THINK I SEE A POSSIBLE PROBLEM I SPEAK OUT. OUR MODERATORS HAVE A TOUGH JOB AND A LOT TO CONSIDER ESPECIALLY WHEN A GROUP PUTS THEM UNDER PRESSURE. I THINK THEY FEEL AS I DO ABOUT THIS FORUM OR THEY WOULD NOT BE MODERATORS. UNFORTUNATELY YOU CAN NEVER MAKE EVERYONE HAPPY THEY JUST DO THE BEST THEY CAN FOR OUR FORUMS. IT IS APPRECIATED FELLOWS.

12th August 2016, 01:53 PM	#1
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,184	Are you kidding me, "no bull?" After much deliberation, I feel compelled to write this thread ; I do so because of my great respect for this forum. I wish to state that I am not trying to embarrass anyone(other than myself),especially the moderators, who do a thankless job very well, however in the case of Vandoo's post on bullfighting weapons,I feel they made a mistake by ending it. I believe very strongly that the stoppage of Vandoo's very informative thread, based on complaints from several forum members about animal cruelty was extremely hypocritical on their part.We discuss weapons that fillet, flay, slice, dice, slash, cut, mince, smash, bash, crush, execute, impale, and shot humans ; can we not elaborate on the historical aspects of this practice with a bull?Will we be banned from postings of shields made from animal hides, daggers with handles of bone, ivory, or horn, sheaths made of leather or lizard skin and so on?This is a dangerous precedent that you embark on and as such, could destroy the forum. Next,can we discounted a practice that dates back at least 4000 years by the Minoans and other ancient cultures and still exercised in Spanish, Portuguese, Central and South America countries and as I have recently learned, thanks to this post in some Middle Eastern places as well.We may not like the "sport," but do we have the audacity to tell millions of people that they are wrong and we are right ? Finally,if there are those who find a certain thread objectionable, please do what I do ;don't open it and don't read it, but I would not want other's freedoms to read it curtailed, based upon my opinions! In conclusion, I have only written the above based on the demands of my conscience and the respect for the members of this forum.

12th August 2016, 02:27 PM	#2
Roland_M Member Join Date: Aug 2014 Location: Germany Posts: 523	If I think about what we do with cattles in intensive mass animal farming or in the slaughter houses, the antipathy against bull fighting seems a little bit of hypocrisy to me. A bull fighting bull will be treated much better in his life time, than intensive mass animal farming cattle.

12th August 2016, 03:04 PM	#3
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 8,519	"Show" fights between humans against humans, human against animal and animal against animal you will find in nearly all places of the world. It is obvious that this is justified by the primary instinct of the human beeing. Some of this show fights seems to some people very barbarous, myself included. Take for example the cock fight in South-East-Asia. It's the same with the bulls in Spain, the cocks have a very nice life, they get every time when the time of the owner it allows a massage and the best food. The fights I've watched but don't like it but when you want to understand "Indonesians" in an ethnograhic backround it's important to have seen such cock fights. IMVHO it have to do with Ethnograhic when the used weapons for bull fights where shown here and there is no need to love this bull fights. I also don't like them but I also don't want to have stayed byside when a human get killed with one of my weapons I've collected.

12th August 2016, 04:03 PM	#4
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,037	Gents, I appreciate that there are various opinions on this subject. However, the question must be asked: What does this have to do with ethnographic weapons? Please do not escalate further what is essentially a peripheral and irrelevant discussion about the so-called sport of bullfighting.

12th August 2016, 04:33 PM	#5
drac2k Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 1,184	First, let me thank you for allowing me to post my differing opinion.Please note that there weren't any posts glorifying "bullfighting;"had the thread continued, I'm sure that some of the cruel aspects of this"sport," would have been portrayed, which might have swayed more against it. In regards to the discussion of the weapons of this trade being "irrelevant,"I think it to be no less so than the Ram Dao, or other sacrificial swords.

13th August 2016, 02:39 AM	#8
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	THE PERSONAL VIEWS OF BOTH SIDES SHOULD BE CONSIDERED OPENLY BY THE MODERATORS. ONE SIDE GOT THE TOPIC CLOSED EASILY AND SOON IT WILL BE BURIED AND FORGOTTEN AS USUALLY HAPPENS WITH LOCKED THREADS. FOR THE VIEWS OF OTHERS TO BE CONSIDERED CRYING AND MOANING AND THAT THESE VIEWS SHOULD BE KEPT TO ONES SELF BOTHERS ME. YES I DID READ ALL OF THE MODERATORS POST AND I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN SUPPORTIVE OF MODERATORS AND THE THANKLESS JOB THEY DO. BUT IN THIS WORLD I HAVE SEEN THE TAIL WAGGING THE DOG IN TOO MANY CASES AND I FEAR THE FEW WHO PUSH FOR A P.C. WORLD WHERE THEY DECIDE WHAT IS P.C. AND WHAT IS NOT. THEY HAVE HAD TOO MUCH SUCCESS ON TOO MANY FRONTS IN TODAY'S WORLD AND I WOULD LIKE TO KEEP THAT ATTITUDE AT BAY ON THESE FORUMS. THESE SAME FOLKS WON A VICTORY WITH THE IVORY LAWS THAT BAN EVERYTHING FROM MAMMOTH TO ANTIQUES AND OLD BOOTS. NO ELEPHANTS SAVED BUT MUCH HAS BEEN AND WILL BE DESTROYED AND RESOURCES AND ART WASTED. THESE FOLKS ARE POWERFUL ALTHOUGH THEY ARE RELATIVELY FEW BUT THEY WORK HARD TO ACHIEVE THEIR GOALS GOOD OR BAD. I AM A ZOOLOGIST, NATURALIST AND HAVE WORKED WITH AND FED BABY ELEPHANTS AND ADULTS. I LOVE CRITTERS BUT I AM ALSO PRACTICAL AND REALISTIC IN MY VIEWS SO AM NOT A BAD PERSON WHO CARES LITTLE ABOUT ANIMALS. I PUT THIS IN BEFORE I CAN BE TRASHED AS AN ANIMAL HATER. THAT'S ENOUGH AND I GIVE UP SOB , MOAN WOE IS ME. THREAD CLOSED.

13th August 2016, 02:45 AM	#9
Robert EAAF Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Centerville, Kansas Posts: 2,196	Wait a minute there little buckaroo, I am just about to reopen the original thread. So dry those tears and please don't make me sorry that I did. Best, Robert

13th August 2016, 07:19 AM	#10
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	GOOD ON YOU MATE AS THEY SAY IN OZ AND I SAY IN OKLAHOMA. ITS UNFORTUNATE WE HAD TO GO THRU ALL OF THIS ESPECIALLY AS I HAD ALREADY POSTED ALL I HAD ON THE SUBJECT. PERHAPS SOMEONE MAY HAVE MORE TO ADD BUT I SUSPECT THIS SUBJECT WOULD HAVE DIED ON ITS OWN WITHOUT ALL THE DRAMA. I DO TRY AND STAY ON SUBJECT AND NOT MAKE A FUSS BUT AT TIMES IT CAN BECOME NECESSARY. I DO VALUE THIS FORUM AND THINK IT IS BECOMING AN IMPORTANT RESOURCE. AS I BELONG TO NO OTHERS I WISH IT TO CONTINUE TO GROW AND PROSPER SO IF I THINK I SEE A POSSIBLE PROBLEM I SPEAK OUT. OUR MODERATORS HAVE A TOUGH JOB AND A LOT TO CONSIDER ESPECIALLY WHEN A GROUP PUTS THEM UNDER PRESSURE. I THINK THEY FEEL AS I DO ABOUT THIS FORUM OR THEY WOULD NOT BE MODERATORS. UNFORTUNATELY YOU CAN NEVER MAKE EVERYONE HAPPY THEY JUST DO THE BEST THEY CAN FOR OUR FORUMS. IT IS APPRECIATED FELLOWS.