Early signs of dhamentia

[Tim Simmons]

While enjoying a brewed elixir, I was rather stupidly perusing ebay and ended up with this. This sort of behaviour is out of character, the ebay part is anyway. It does have some damage but not unexceptable for the money or too my surprise its age. The tip is fine and purposely fashioned. It handles beautifully what practitioners would call a fast weapon. I like the ivory grip but I do not really know a lot about it. Can I join the dhamented, please Tim

[Tim Simmons]

Marks I have just found, has anybody seen the same ones?

[Lew]

Hi Tim

That is a rather nice dha you picked up It shows very nice workmanship on the hilt and the blade is old. I can't quite place what tribe it came from. The point throws me a bit? Mark this is one for you to figure out. I leave this up to the experts.


Lew

[Henk]

Hi Tim,

I think I will get drunk too tonight

That brewed elixer gave you a sharp view on the pleasures of live

[Andrew]

Nice sword, Tim. Congratulations!

I've never seen that blade marking before, so I can't help you there. As for the origin, I believe this is in the Thai style (we're revisiting the rough typology we started a few years ago, and the tribal nomenclature is less helpful.). The handle/blade proportions and the stylized lotus-bud pommel make me think this, although these features do appear on swords from other areas in the region (long handles often apear on Laotian swords, and variations of the pommel appear on Burmese swords as well). I'll let Mark address this more definitively, as he's really doing the heavy lifting in our research.

Age is a tough one, particularly from photos. This thing looks pretty old, but in nice condition. I'd say late 19th/early 20th century. It may be older.

The blade is nice, and that broad central fuller is not rare on Thai swords. The blade tip is interesting, and it looks like the fuller extends all the way to the end? Any chance you could post a close-up of that feature?

Best,
Andrew

[Tim Simmons]

I hope these help. The seller said it was from Malay. The pictures show where the sword ends inside the scabbard, just short of the peg in the scabbard, pegs have been discussed before. Thanks for the help, I was very worried I had bought a pig and a poke while waiting for it to arrive. Tim

[RhysMichael]

Originally Posted by Andrew

Nice sword, Tim. Congratulations!

I believe this is in the Thai style (we're revisiting the rough typology we started a few years ago, and the tribal nomenclature is less helpful.). The handle/blade proportions and the stylized lotus-bud pommel make me think this, although these features do appear on swords from other areas in the region (long handles often apear on Laotian swords, and variations of the pommel appear on Burmese swords as well). I'll let Mark address this more definitively, as he's really doing the heavy lifting in our research.

Andrew
you may have seen this but some evidence from Wat Prakaew in Thailand. It gives a good view of the lotus bud design as a Thai motif,though I am not sure if these are supposed to be swords

[Tim Simmons]

I have just seen another dha with a peg and chape scabbard, I will not be able to show the pictures for a couple of hours. Tim

[Andrew]

Hi Tim,

I'm not inclined to place too much significance on the peg at this time. Those other weapons you show are of recent manufacture, and typical of the type. Your ivory-handled sword is much older, and much finer. It is, frankly, a special sword.

I'm certainly not suggesting the peg has no significance at all, but it fades into the background for me at this point when considering the other characteristics.

Andrew

[Tim Simmons]

Gosh thank you, the devil looks after his own , I will not bother with the other picturs as it to is rather modern. Thanks again. Tim

[Tim Simmons]

In a very informative but not too scholarly book "The Vanishing Tribes of Burma" Richard K Diran, available from amazon, some nice pictures of Burmese young ladies . The Shan, Yao, and Hmong all have groups in Burma, Loas and Thai borders, the Golden Triangle, so I think trying to be sure of the swords origin is really quite tricky. I must say I rather like the idea of saying "Golden Triangle" Tim

[Mark]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

In a very informative but not too scholarly book "The Vanishing Tribes of Burma" Richard K Diran, available from amazon, some nice pictures of Burmese young ladies . The Shan, Yao, and Hmong all have groups in Burma, Loas and Thai borders, the Golden Triangle, so I think trying to be sure of the swords origin is really quite tricky. I must say I rather like the idea of saying "Golden Triangle" Tim

That is but the tip of the iceberg. There are dozens of "Kachin" tribes (Kachin is actually a Burmese word), Karen, Chin, Arrakanese, Mon, etc., etc. Burma is a very heterogenous country, ethnically speaking. The nosology of the dha is indeed very tricky.

[Mark]

I forgot the add the icing on the cake -- according to Leach, "Political Systems of Highland Burma," Kachin and Shan tribes inhabit the same regions (Kachin up in the mountains, and Shan down in the upland river valleys), and individuals can become sort of indentured to members of the other tribe and end up adopting the identy of that tribe. So an ethnic Kachin will call himself "Shan" if he/she is indentured to a Shan and living among the Shan, and vice versa! Plus, frequently a sword may be made by one tribe, and used by the other, or the blade made by one tribe and the fittings by another. Bewildering ...

Originally Posted by Mark Bowditch

That is but the tip of the iceberg. There are dozens of "Kachin" tribes (Kachin is actually a Burmese word), Karen, Chin, Arrakanese, Mon, etc., etc. Burma is a very heterogenous country, ethnically speaking. The nosology of the dha is indeed very tricky.

[Tim Simmons]

Thank you fellows, not too scholarly in English English means coffee table book I used to think Africa was the forgotten area and still is in some ways but when it comes to Asia, the areas of the dha still seem to be in darkness. I shall follow your updated info. Can you recommend any catalogue type books on the dha? Tim

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Thank you fellows, not too scholarly in English English means coffee table book I used to think Africa was the forgotten area and still is in some ways but when it comes to Asia, the areas of the dha still seem to be in darkness. I shall follow your updated info. Can you recommend any catalogue type books on the dha? Tim

lol. It does have many nice pictures.

What do you mean by "catalogue type books"? There's a bibliography thread around here somewhere that I've been meaning to update and make a "Sticky" for some time. However, the references for dha are sparse, and we tend to get excited about a single photo or passing reference in much larger works.

Incidentally. this dearth of information is exactly what fomented my obsession with dha.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

In a very informative but not too scholarly book "The Vanishing Tribes of Burma" Richard K Diran, available from amazon, some nice pictures of Burmese young ladies . The Shan, Yao, and Hmong all have groups in Burma, Loas and Thai borders, the Golden Triangle, so I think trying to be sure of the swords origin is really quite tricky. I must say I rather like the idea of saying "Golden Triangle" Tim

Diran's book is a nice source, but unfortunately lacks the depth we're all looking for. Don't feel discouraged, Tim. Mark, Ian and I have been struggling with these issues for years now, and our research has frequently turned up information that changes our way of thinking. For instance, if you do a search of the old forum, you'll find an old thread where we tried to categorize dha forms along tribal lines. This very rough typology has broken down over the years, and while some elements remain helpful, we're moving in other directions presently. Information obtained from Dan Wilke (Wilked) while he was stationed in Thailand was invaluable in this regard.

Stay tuned.