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Old 23rd October 2008, 01:31 AM   #1
Bill M
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Default Two Dutch Hembrugs

I got my modified Hembrug from UK today. Here are some pictures with a longer standard Dutch Klewang used in Aceh.

If I had not read the earlier thread, I would have thought that my "modified" klewang was made as such and not a shortened Dutch military klewang.

I ordered a copy of "Klewang: Catalogue of the Dutch Army Museum by Koninklijk Nederlands Leger- en Wapenmuseum Generaal Hoefer, J. P. Puype, Jozef J Aptos, Jan Piet Puijpe, Koninklijk Nederlands Leger- en Wapenmuseum Generaal Hoefer, Rob de Sturler Boekwijt."

from Barnes and Noble Booksellers USA and it was in Dutch! There was no mention of this when I ordered it, so I returned it and bought another copy from Amazon after being sure it was in English. This copy has not arrived yet, so I will withhold comments until I get it.

Hopefully Wayne and a few others who have "Kelly-wang" knowledge will chime in.
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Old 23rd October 2008, 05:48 AM   #2
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Bill. The modified sword was captured in the Dutch East Indies, by the Japanese during WWII. They shortened the blade, and put a more Japanese style point. They also removed the major portion of the guard. These were used as machetes, and issued to local paramilitary, and police units. M.P.
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Old 23rd October 2008, 12:12 PM   #3
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Dear Bill,

This type is also referred to as a Heiho Klewang.

As for the book

Quote:
so I returned it and bought another copy from Amazon after being sure it was in English.


PS.
I can still get copies of this book in combined Dutch and English language.
Just PM me if you are interested.
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Old 24th October 2008, 02:59 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trenchwarfare
Bill. The modified sword was captured in the Dutch East Indies, by the Japanese during WWII. They shortened the blade, and put a more Japanese style point. They also removed the major portion of the guard. These were used as machetes, and issued to local paramilitary, and police units. M.P.


As far as I am concerned, this is another popular myth that has passed into folklore.
It was quite common for local recruits/mercenaries fighting for the colonial Dutch military to modify their cutlasses to suit their personal taste for more efficient use with their 'brand' of martial arts. This went on long before the outbreak of hostilities known as WWII. Among the Soenda, for instance, the length and weight would be adjusted for use in Ibing Toelak Bala as a golok or golok pandjang. The closed guard would also have been more of a hindrance.

Best,
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Old 24th October 2008, 09:10 AM   #5
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I'm afraid this is not a popular myth.

It is as Trenchwarfare and asomotif said. These dutch klewangs were reshaped by the japanese during WWII into a heiho klewang.
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Old 24th October 2008, 09:36 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henk
I'm afraid this is not a popular myth.

It is as Trenchwarfare and asomotif said. These dutch klewangs were reshaped by the japanese during WWII into a heiho klewang.


Hullo Henk,

Sorry, but I must disagree. While the Japanese may have been responsible for the term Heiho Klewang, this modification was only a continuation of past practice. Such modifications were made as far afield as Montenegro (where it was cut and shaped like a short yataghan) and South Africa (where it was made easier to cut through the bush).
Anyway, to each his own.

Best,
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Old 24th October 2008, 05:35 PM   #7
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y'all are probably all correct, local mods and japanese mods are more likely than local mods or japanese mods. would be interesting to see a few together, i only have the a full - sized unmodified klewang (at the moment ).
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Old 24th October 2008, 05:44 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul
As far as I am concerned, this is another popular myth that has passed into folklore.
It was quite common for local recruits/mercenaries fighting for the colonial Dutch military to modify their cutlasses to suit their personal taste for more efficient use with their 'brand' of martial arts. This went on long before the outbreak of hostilities known as WWII. Among the Soenda, for instance, the length and weight would be adjusted for use in Ibing Toelak Bala as a golok or golok pandjang. The closed guard would also have been more of a hindrance.

Best,



Hallo Amuk,

Are you saying that it was Dutch local recruits/mercenaries who modified these klewangs into the "machette shape" and this was not done by the Japanese?
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Old 24th October 2008, 09:32 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Marsh
Hallo Amuk,

Are you saying that it was Dutch local recruits/mercenaries who modified these klewangs into the "machette shape" and this was not done by the Japanese?


Hullo Bill,

Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying.
First of all, you must realise that the Dutch colonial forces had foreign soldiers fighting for them even in the Atjeh conflicts. First, were the Ugandans, I think, (Africans,anyway), followed by people from the Soelawesi area, the Madoera area and Djawa.
Traditionally, people from Noesantara (Malay Archipelago) had their important/personal implements (as opposed to day-to-day-use ones) custom-made to suit the user's personal characteristics. It was unusual for someone to pick one up at the market,except in an emergency. With the varying builds and heights of these people ( unusual to be above 5'7''), the standard-issue klewang would have been wieldy and cumbersome to use, especially in traditional combat. Therefore, the practical modification.
As for the Japanese, even the Soenda, at the time, referred to them as "Oerang Kate" (short people). No doubt many of them faced similar problems with the klewang.
I myself differentiate between my personal instruments and my collection.

Best,
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Old 25th October 2008, 03:16 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kronckew
y'all are probably all correct, local mods and japanese mods are more likely than local mods or japanese mods. would be interesting to see a few together, i only have the a full - sized unmodified klewang (at the moment ).


Hullo Kronckew,

Here's a start. The top blade is a cut Hembrug 'heiho', while the bottom one is a South African, 1901 German-made Hakmes. Sorry for the poor quality. Note:- handles are different; also on the South African one, the guard is longer, the fuller shorter.


Best,
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Old 25th October 2008, 05:51 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul
Hullo Henk,

Sorry, but I must disagree. While the Japanese may have been responsible for the term Heiho Klewang, this modification was only a continuation of past practice. Such modifications were made as far afield as Montenegro (where it was cut and shaped like a short yataghan) and South Africa (where it was made easier to cut through the bush).
Anyway, to each his own.

Best,

You say that the Japanese continued the practice. This doesn't mean that the Japanese didn't initiate a similar practice under there occupation. It's like saying that the French were the first to sporterize military firearms. Even Native Americans of the Historic era searched earlier prehistoric sites for projectile points, and reworked them into their own designs. It's human nature to take another's tool, weapons, or equipment, and modify them to your own needs and tastes. You contardict yourself. To each his own I guess.
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Old 25th October 2008, 11:19 PM   #12
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Hello Amuk,

Do you have any pictures of indonesian recruits fighting for the dutch that are wearing a shortened Klewang ?
I can understand your theory about these native soldiers shortening the klewang because they were not comfortable in using it.

But if I compare a dutch klewang to an acehnese Sikin or Ladieng, I am not sure if the story about size really makes a point.

Also I wonder if the dutch army would have allowed cutting down the klewang.
These weapons where property of the army and not personal weapons.

Ps. why is the 'hakmes' you show us south african ?
Looks to me like the dutch Marechausee sabel which was the inspiration for the dutch Klewang.

Best regards,
Willem
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Old 26th October 2008, 02:00 PM   #13
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Old 21st February 2009, 11:45 PM   #14
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Default Correct Translation from Dutch Please . . .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul
Hullo Bill,

Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying.
First of all, you must realise that the Dutch colonial forces had foreign soldiers fighting for them even in the Atjeh conflicts. First, were the Ugandans, I think, (Africans,anyway), followed by people from the Soelawesi area, the Madoera area and Djawa.
Traditionally, people from Noesantara (Malay Archipelago) had their important/personal implements (as opposed to day-to-day-use ones) custom-made to suit the user's personal characteristics. It was unusual for someone to pick one up at the market,except in an emergency. With the varying builds and heights of these people ( unusual to be above 5'7''), the standard-issue klewang would have been wieldy and cumbersome to use, especially in traditional combat. Therefore, the practical modification.
As for the Japanese, even the Soenda, at the time, referred to them as "Oerang Kate" (short people). No doubt many of them faced similar problems with the klewang.
I myself differentiate between my personal instruments and my collection.

Best,


Hullo Everybody,

Sorry for bringing up an old thread. I was cleaning up some of my stuff and came upon some material taken from Puype. I thought it appropriate to post this relevant bit for posterity. As my Dutch is not as good as that of a native, I ask that a person with better knowledge of Dutch translate it for me. Thank you in advance.

"..Het is heel zelden dat een klewang voor 100% origineel is',
aldus het relaas van een oud-KNIL-soldaat: 'Als de klewangs uitgereikt werden aan de
soldaten begon de ellende voor de officieren. Iedere, hoofdzakelijk inlandse, soldaat, begon te
slijpen en te vijlen aan die dingen [. .. ] Korter of langer gemaakt, soms wat verbreed aan de
punt of een V-vormige punt eraan geslepen. Gewoon zoals hij 'lekker' in de hand lag. Waar
een blanke soldaat met de klewang stond te hakken en te maaien, hoefde de inlandse soldaat
slechts met een geoefende polsbeweging een draaiende beweging te maken om een veel groter
effect te sorteren. Geoefend werd eerst op pisangstammen, later op houten palen. Als er
inspectie was van de klewang kwam er een grote rariteitenverzameling uit de scheden. Deze
laatste waren wel uniform gebleven. Alles werd dan afgekeurd, ingeleverd en nieuwe
klewangs werden uitgereikt. Dan volgde weer hetzelfde gangetje. Uiteindelijk werden er
zoveel klewangs van elkaar en meestal gesneuvelden gejat dat bijna iedere soldaat een nieuwe
klewang had voor inspectie en één voor het gevecht, en één schede. Ook werden veel
klewangs verloren of verzopen [voor jenever verkocht] door de blanke zoals dat heette...".


Best,
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Old 22nd February 2009, 11:18 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul
"..Het is heel zelden dat een klewang voor 100% origineel is',
aldus het relaas van een oud-KNIL-soldaat: 'Als de klewangs uitgereikt werden aan de
soldaten begon de ellende voor de officieren. Iedere, hoofdzakelijk inlandse, soldaat, begon te
slijpen en te vijlen aan die dingen [. .. ] Korter of langer gemaakt, soms wat verbreed aan de
punt of een V-vormige punt eraan geslepen. Gewoon zoals hij 'lekker' in de hand lag. Waar
een blanke soldaat met de klewang stond te hakken en te maaien, hoefde de inlandse soldaat
slechts met een geoefende polsbeweging een draaiende beweging te maken om een veel groter
effect te sorteren. Geoefend werd eerst op pisangstammen, later op houten palen. Als er
inspectie was van de klewang kwam er een grote rariteitenverzameling uit de scheden. Deze
laatste waren wel uniform gebleven. Alles werd dan afgekeurd, ingeleverd en nieuwe
klewangs werden uitgereikt. Dan volgde weer hetzelfde gangetje. Uiteindelijk werden er
zoveel klewangs van elkaar en meestal gesneuvelden gejat dat bijna iedere soldaat een nieuwe
klewang had voor inspectie en één voor het gevecht, en één schede. Ook werden veel
klewangs verloren of verzopen [voor jenever verkocht] door de blanke zoals dat heette...".


"..It is very seldom that a klewang is 100% original',
according to the story of a former-KNIL-soldier: 'When the klewangs where distributed to the soldiers the misery for the officers started. Every, mainly native, soldier, started to grind and file on those things [. .. ] Made shorter or longer, somtimes a bit broadend to the tip or a V-shaped tip was grinded on it. Just that it felt "comfortable" in the hand. Where a white Dutch soldier with the klewang was standing cutting and mowing, the native soldier only had to make a turning move with a practiced wristmovement to sort a much larger effect. In the beginning practice was done on pisangtrunks, later on wooden poles. When there was an inspection of the klewang, a large collection of curiosities came out of the scabbards.
The scabbards where kept untouched. Everything was disapproved, surrendered and new klewangs where distributed. Then the whole story started again. Eventually so many klewangs where stolen from each other and from those killed in action, that almost every soldier owned a new klewang for inspection and one for combat, but only one scabbard. Also many klewangs where lost or spend in drinks [sold for jenever (kind of gin)] by the white as it was used to say..."
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Old 10th March 2009, 11:44 PM   #16
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Hello.

Also I would like to ask for help, in the same text
http://www.collectie.legermuseum.nl...20k lewang.pdf
there is also about klewang use by Japanese.

Unfortunately it is in Dutch, but automatic translation is quite meaningless.

Could you translate, or at least write main details about Klewangs captured, used by Japanese:

"De Japans-Indische zgn. Heiho-klewang Bij de capitulatie van het KNIL in maart 1942 vielen de Japanners grote hoeveelheden wapens in handen. Kabbedijk refereert, overigens zonder een bron te noemen, aan een Japans
rapport van 1942 waaruit blijkt dat alleen al op Java 40.552 sabels op het KNIL waren buitgemaakt. [48] Men mag aannemen dat dit grotendeels Marechausseesabels en andere soorten klewangs (b.v. van de Koninklijke marine en de mariniers) alsmede kapmessen waren. Beseffende dat zij op militair en politie-gebied al snel Indonesische hulp nodig hadden, richtte
de bezetter een militair hulpkorps, Heiho genaamd, op. Volgens L. de Jong trachtten de Japanners voor de Heiho vooral inheemse ex-KNIL-militairen te werven, o.a. omdat deze gewend waren aan discipline, en hij schat dat alleen al op Java ca. 15.000 van deze lieden als 'Heiho-er' dienst namen, waarvan later zeker de helft is omgekomen. De Heiho werd vooral gebruikt voor het aanleggen van wegen, bouwen van depots, lossen van militaire voorraden en
transport naar de gevechtszone. Later nam de Heiho ook actief deel aan de strijd. [49] De Japanners rustten de Heiho uit met een sterk ingekorte klewang (afb. 15). De kling werd 40-45 cm lang en van de gevestkorf waren alle beugels weggezaagd zodat alleen een stootplaatje overbleef. Het laatste om te voorkomen dat het wapen topzwaar zou worden. De klingpunt werd zuiver asymmetrisch en de snede sloot met een spitse boog op de rug aan. De
schede werd navenant ingekort en de onderband, soms de mondingsband, verplaatst. Door deze veranderingen was dit klewang-derivaat als echtwapen praktisch waardeloos geworden, men kon er nauwelijks mee houwen en steken. Het lijkt ons niet denkbeeldig dat de bezetter dit uit iligheidsoverwegingen zo heeft gewild. Dat de Heiho-klewang er in silhouet
enigszins 'Japans' uitziet is volgens ons min of meer toeval, want aan de basisvorm werd niets gewijzigd.
Het ligt voor de hand dat alle soorten klewangtypen en -modellen door de Japanners voor dit doel zijn gebruikt, hetgeen door de vele bewaard gebleven exemplaren wordt bevestigd. Van vele klingen is echter het merk weggeslepen. Interessante variaties zijn die door de Japanners gemaakte wapens, waarbij alleen ingekorte klewangklingen zijn toegepast, zoals (wellicht) een exemplaar met de aangepaste greep van een KNIL-kapmes, dat onlangs op een veiling verscheen [50], en een met de geheel messing greep van een Pruisisch Seitengewehr 71. Zeer interessant zijn tenslotte een tweetal Arisaka-bajonetten, bestemd voor het Nambu Type 100
machinegeweer, waarvan er zich een in het Legermuseum (reg. 010492) bevindt, de ander in een buitenlandse verzameling. [51]"

Thank you in advance.
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Old 12th March 2009, 12:02 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mietek
"De Japans-Indische zgn. Heiho-klewang Bij de capitulatie van het KNIL in maart 1942 vielen de Japanners grote hoeveelheden wapens in handen. Kabbedijk refereert, overigens zonder een bron te noemen, aan een Japans
rapport van 1942 waaruit blijkt dat alleen al op Java 40.552 sabels op het KNIL waren buitgemaakt. [48] Men mag aannemen dat dit grotendeels Marechausseesabels en andere soorten klewangs (b.v. van de Koninklijke marine en de mariniers) alsmede kapmessen waren. Beseffende dat zij op militair en politie-gebied al snel Indonesische hulp nodig hadden, richtte
de bezetter een militair hulpkorps, Heiho genaamd, op. Volgens L. de Jong trachtten de Japanners voor de Heiho vooral inheemse ex-KNIL-militairen te werven, o.a. omdat deze gewend waren aan discipline, en hij schat dat alleen al op Java ca. 15.000 van deze lieden als 'Heiho-er' dienst namen, waarvan later zeker de helft is omgekomen. De Heiho werd vooral gebruikt voor het aanleggen van wegen, bouwen van depots, lossen van militaire voorraden en
transport naar de gevechtszone. Later nam de Heiho ook actief deel aan de strijd. [49] De Japanners rustten de Heiho uit met een sterk ingekorte klewang (afb. 15). De kling werd 40-45 cm lang en van de gevestkorf waren alle beugels weggezaagd zodat alleen een stootplaatje overbleef. Het laatste om te voorkomen dat het wapen topzwaar zou worden. De klingpunt werd zuiver asymmetrisch en de snede sloot met een spitse boog op de rug aan. De
schede werd navenant ingekort en de onderband, soms de mondingsband, verplaatst. Door deze veranderingen was dit klewang-derivaat als echtwapen praktisch waardeloos geworden, men kon er nauwelijks mee houwen en steken. Het lijkt ons niet denkbeeldig dat de bezetter dit uit iligheidsoverwegingen zo heeft gewild. Dat de Heiho-klewang er in silhouet
enigszins 'Japans' uitziet is volgens ons min of meer toeval, want aan de basisvorm werd niets gewijzigd.
Het ligt voor de hand dat alle soorten klewangtypen en -modellen door de Japanners voor dit doel zijn gebruikt, hetgeen door de vele bewaard gebleven exemplaren wordt bevestigd. Van vele klingen is echter het merk weggeslepen. Interessante variaties zijn die door de Japanners gemaakte wapens, waarbij alleen ingekorte klewangklingen zijn toegepast, zoals (wellicht) een exemplaar met de aangepaste greep van een KNIL-kapmes, dat onlangs op een veiling verscheen [50], en een met de geheel messing greep van een Pruisisch Seitengewehr 71. Zeer interessant zijn tenslotte een tweetal Arisaka-bajonetten, bestemd voor het Nambu Type 100
machinegeweer, waarvan er zich een in het Legermuseum (reg. 010492) bevindt, de ander in een buitenlandse verzameling. [51]"


"The Japanese-Indonesian so called Heiho-klewang.
With the capitulation of the KNIL in march 1942 a large amount of weapons came in Japanese hands. Kabbedijk refers, by the way without mentioning a source, to a Japanese report from 1942 from which appeared that only on Java 40.552 sabres where captured from the KNIL. [48] One may presume that this where for the largest part Marechausseesabres and other kind of klewangs (for instance from the Royal navy and the marines) as well as machetes. Realizing that they needed very soon Indonesian help on military and police-field, the occupier founded a military supportcorps, called Heiho. According to proffesor L. de Jong the Japanese tried to recruit for the Heiho especially local ex-KNIL-soldiers, because they where used to discipline and he estimated that only on Java ca. 15.000 of these soldiers enlisted as 'Heiho-er', of which later at least half of that amount died. The Heiho where mainly used for building roads, building of depots, unloading military supplies and tranportation to the combatzones. Later the Heiho took an active part to combat. [49] The Japanese equiped the Heiho with a heavily shorted klewang (pict. 15). The blade became 40-45 cm long and from the hilt basket all guards where sawn away until only a small swordguard was left. The last to prevent that the weapon became top heavy. The tip of the blade became true asymetrical and the edge made a connection with a sharp curve on the backside. The scabbard was shortened in proportion and the mouth string was moved.
By these changes this klewang-derivate became worthless as a real weapon, one could hardly cut and stab with it. It is not hypothetical that the occupier wanted this for security reasons. That the Heiho-klewang is looking in silhouet
somewhat 'Japanese' is in our opinion more or less a coincidence, because nothing was changed on the original shape.
It is obvious that all kind of klewangtypes and -paterns where used for this purpose by the Japanese, which is confirmed by the many examples that where preserved. From many blades the mark was polished away. Interesting variations are the weapons made by the Japanese, with the use of only the shortened klewangblades, like an example with a modified hilt of a KNIL-machete, that appeared recently on an auction [50], and one with de complete brass hilt of a Pruisian Seitengewehr 71. Very interesting are finally two Arisaka-bajonets, intended for the Nambu Type 100
machinegun, of which one is in the Legermuseum (Armymuseum)(reg. 010492), and the other in a foreign collection. [51]"
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Old 12th March 2009, 02:04 PM   #18
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Thank you very much!!

What do you think about this HEMBURG, which type of klewang it was oryginally?



Markings on the scabbard are: NMO 1 42 WZ

Blade, pommlel are with Hemburg, E with crown, 623 and 21
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