Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 14th November 2006, 08:26 AM   #1
cedric Le Dauphin
Member
 
cedric Le Dauphin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Paris
Posts: 31
Default dha handles for ID

Hi! everyone

I have a few dha handles to identify. I know that the forum has some specialists of this weapon. Thanks to then for enlightening an amateur on their provenance.
I was also wondering about the recursive subject of the sculpture. The one I have seem to have a "monster" bearing a prince on their back. I thought of Satsuma carried by Kalmasapada, but I don't even know if they exists in the local folklore.
Thanks to all of you
Attached Images
    
cedric Le Dauphin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th November 2006, 01:48 PM   #2
Ian
Vikingsword Staff
 
Ian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 3,097
Default

Hi Cedric:

Good to see another dha fancier on the forum.

Lovely carved hilts. All of these appear to be Burmese in origin, or at least in the Burmese style. Many of these hilts are also given a provenance of "hill tribe" -- indicating they may be from the NE area of Burma, traditionally a Shan region but with other ethnic groups as well.

I don't think all of these examples are necessarily Shan or from that area. I have not seen this form of intricate ivory carving, which resembles Chinese carving in style (sometimes with a figure inside the network of vines and leaves), on Thai, Lao or Cambodian knives and swords.

The Shan were originally from China and were forced south in the 13-14th C., so a link to traditional Chinese ivory carving would make sense.

Ian.
Ian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14th November 2006, 07:40 PM   #3
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 6,687
Default

Ian would it be correct to say that all of these examples so far are not temple or priest hilts?
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th November 2006, 02:36 AM   #4
PUFF
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand
Posts: 224
Default

I placed a pic in Dahb's hilt thread here...

http://www.gun.in.th/webboard/index...;threadid=10923

Comments will be translated for you
PUFF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th November 2006, 03:01 AM   #5
Ian
Vikingsword Staff
 
Ian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 3,097
Default

I think that is correct Jose. These are usually seen on knives made for cutting and stabbing rather than for spiritual purposes.

Ian.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Battara
Ian would it be correct to say that all of these examples so far are not temple or priest hilts?
Ian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th November 2006, 03:05 AM   #6
Ian
Vikingsword Staff
 
Ian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 3,097
Default

PUFF:

What is the dahb directly above the hilt that you posted on that thread?

Ian.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PUFF
I placed a pic in Dahb's hilt thread here...

http://www.gun.in.th/webboard/index...;threadid=10923

Comments will be translated for you
Ian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th November 2006, 10:50 AM   #7
PUFF
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand
Posts: 224
Default

It 's oval x-section style, found in the northern part of Thailand. We are going to classify this style as an oval hilt family. One guy said that the wooden ones are copies of a silver one. And one guy suggested that the style might be inspired by japanese one.

We still don't know about the carved one. One one guy mentioned that the style could be burmese.
PUFF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th November 2006, 03:29 PM   #8
Mark
Member
 
Mark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 987
Default

According Fraser-Lu, the fine, pierced ivory carving is a style characteristic of Lower Burma, originating in Moulmien (just above the Malay Peninsula) but now done in Rangoon, the Moulmien industry having died out. Fraser-Lu, "Burmese Crafts," p. 114. According to Egerton, ivory carving in high-relief was a Shan style. Egerton, "An Illustrated Handbook of Indian Arms and Those of Nepal, Burma, Thailand and Malaya," p. 85. This, of course, does not tell us whether or not a high-relief carving style is/was found further south, but many (if not most) of the non-pierced, high-relief handles I have seen are on Shan dha, and the pierced styles on Burman dha.

Shan dha



Burman dha


Mark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th November 2006, 10:35 AM   #9
cedric Le Dauphin
Member
 
cedric Le Dauphin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Paris
Posts: 31
Default

hi! everyone

Thank you all for your replies.
I also found out the subject was kalmasapada carrying Sutasoma. For your info these handles have been brought back in Europe in the 30's.
Where I'm mixed, it's the ethnic attribution.
On one side I have "Metro Kachin" and the other I have "sham". not beeing a specialist of this region, i don't even know if they are the same people, close neighbours or from distant regions.
cedric Le Dauphin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th November 2006, 02:26 PM   #10
Ian
Vikingsword Staff
 
Ian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 3,097
Default

The designations of "Metro Kachin" and "Shan" seen in a particular classification scheme may not be correct with respect to the ivory hilt styles. We do see substantial cross over in styles between Kachin and Shan styles among Burman groups. The "Metro" designation implies the adaptation of these respective styles outside their home territories, primarily by Burman groups living in more populated centers. The Kachin, of course, occupy mainly the northern and NW states, while the Shan are mainly in the NE states. Burmans are mainly lowlanders,

The classification system that you refer to takes into account hilt styles, but is also based on blade geometry and scabbard styles. Hope this helps.

Ian.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cedric Le Dauphin
hi! everyone

Thank you all for your replies.
I also found out the subject was kalmasapada carrying Sutasoma. For your info these handles have been brought back in Europe in the 30's.
Where I'm mixed, it's the ethnic attribution.
On one side I have "Metro Kachin" and the other I have "sham". not beeing a specialist of this region, i don't even know if they are the same people, close neighbours or from distant regions.
Ian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th November 2006, 02:53 PM   #11
Andrew
Member
 
Andrew's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 1,725
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian

The classification system that you refer to takes into account hilt styles, but is also based on blade geometry and scabbard styles. Hope this helps.

Ian.


And is in desperate need of an update. We need to get with Mark on this as he's been doing a good bit of research on it, I believe.
Andrew is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th November 2006, 07:15 AM   #12
cedric Le Dauphin
Member
 
cedric Le Dauphin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Paris
Posts: 31
Default

Hi! everyone
It's even better with the pic that I hadn't the last time.(thank you mark)
And thank you Ian for the explanations.
I promise to keep you posted on this collection.
Best regards
Cedric
cedric Le Dauphin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th November 2006, 04:18 PM   #13
Ian
Vikingsword Staff
 
Ian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: The Aussie Bush
Posts: 3,097
Default

PUFF:

I don't want to hijack Cedric's thread, but I am curious about the oval-hilted sword you mention. Do you think that you could start a new thread and post some pictures here about that sword? The reason I ask is because I have a Cambodian sword, very old and much sharpened over the years, with an oval cross section and carved features that suggest a possible Japanese influence.

Any connection between the origin of the sword on the Thai site and Cambodia?

Ian.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PUFF
It 's oval x-section style, found in the northern part of Thailand. We are going to classify this style as an oval hilt family. One guy said that the wooden ones are copies of a silver one. And one guy suggested that the style might be inspired by japanese one.

We still don't know about the carved one. One one guy mentioned that the style could be burmese.
Ian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th November 2006, 03:19 AM   #14
PUFF
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: 30 miles north of Bangkok, 20 miles south of Ayuthaya, Thailand
Posts: 224
Default

I still waiting for pics of the silver one and I will re-post all pics in a new thread.
PUFF is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 10:30 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.