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Old 27th July 2015, 10:26 PM   #31
Jim McDougall
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Sirupate, thank you for the additional information on shakudo!
I had no idea it extended that far into antiquity and in those civilizations.
My only familiarity came from references on smallswords using this type of motif. Naturally the decoration on Indian sword hilts has its own complexities, but I could not resist noting the similarity.
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Old 27th July 2015, 10:38 PM   #32
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I vaguely remembered that in one of my books on Japanese swords there being the belief that shakudo came from elsewhere, so I just googled it, it is a very good article as it happens, but I have no idea how to post PDF on here.
I must say the knowledge that you and Jens have is just incredible, many thanks Simon
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Old 27th July 2015, 10:55 PM   #33
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Sirupate:

I think it helps, Simon, if we can all take a look at the article you mentioned and know what it is that we are discussing. Attached is a PDF copy of what I believe to be that article. Thank you for bringing this to our attention.

I am reminded of a recent discussion on copper alloys with regard to the use of samrit ("auspicious alloy") in a recent SE Asian thread (http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ighlight=samrit).

Ian.

Attached reference: O'DUBHGHAILL, C. & JONES, A.H. Japanese irogane alloys and patination—a study of production and application. Available from Sheffield Hallam University Research Archive (SHURA) at: http://shura.shu.ac.uk/971/

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File Type: pdf Shakudo alloy.pdf (3.61 MB, 408 views)
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Old 28th July 2015, 01:06 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Nothing conclusive of course, but I wanted to share some of the details of earlier debates and discussions with newer members and readers for them to pursue their own perspectives.


Certainly very interesting and a concisely written argument Jim, I can certainly see the merits of such a grip position.

The only thing I can contribute, from my days collecting British Indian swords, is that I owned an example of their P08 version of the 1908 Cavalry Sword, which was marked to the 33rd cavalry. It was slightly heavier than its British counterpart, and the grip was made from a native hard wood, as opposed to the gutta percha of the early British 1908's.

If anything the grip on the 33rd cavalry example was slightly larger than the British version, although I could not tell you why!

I still have images somewhere, if they would be of use?

Kind regards,

Chris
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Old 28th July 2015, 02:07 AM   #35
Jim McDougall
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Thank you for the kind words Simon, actually Jens is by far the 'master at arms' of tulwars and katars, and I learned mostly from and with him over a good number of years. Again, I do appreciate your additional input on the shakudo.
Ian, thank you for the backup with the links and references on this topic.

Chris, pretty exciting to hear of your interest in British/Indian swords, and my first field of collecting (many many years ago) was British cavalry swords. Eventually I came into the fascinating area between these and those of the native cavalry units of the Raj, then the hybrids of tulwars with British blades and so on.
With this it was inevitable that I became enthralled with Indian arms themselves, but always completely intrigued by the forms made for the Indian units, such as tulwars made by MOLE etc.

It is interesting to know of your example of the P08, and I really would be interested to know more on it. I did not wish to divert the momentum on this thread on tulwars, so perhaps we could start a thread on swords of the Indian cavalry.....definitely a topic worthwhile of its own focus.
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Old 28th July 2015, 09:59 AM   #36
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Hi Ian,

Hopefully I have got this right;
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Shakudo Sheffield UNI.pdf (3.62 MB, 292 views)
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Old 28th July 2015, 10:08 AM   #37
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Hi Jim,

I'm a great fan of the 1796 LCS, but I have always admired Indian swords and armour, especially after my first visit to the V & A, it is great to have two such knowledgeable people such as Jens and yourself to learn from.

I think it would be a great if a thread was done of swords of the Indian army

All the best Simon
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Old 28th July 2015, 02:58 PM   #38
David R
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The black alloy is more likely Bidriware a zinc and copper alloy much used in India.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bidriware
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Old 28th July 2015, 04:04 PM   #39
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Simon:

Thanks for posting this very interesting article. I got to read it through last night and it contains some fairly thorough scholarship on the production of the various copper alloys and their patination. Metallurgy is definitely not my field, and dredging up college chemistry from many years ago takes a while, but this article looks like an important contribution to the field and would certainly classify as "serious research" in terms of its methods and analysis.

Do we have any metallurgists on the Forum who would care to comment?

Ian.
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Old 28th July 2015, 04:09 PM   #40
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Hi Ian,
Yes James Kelly is a specialist, and he is a member.
If he is made aware of the discussion I feel sure he will take part.
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Old 28th July 2015, 04:37 PM   #41
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Glad you like it Ian
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Old 28th July 2015, 05:14 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Chris, pretty exciting to hear of your interest in British/Indian swords, and my first field of collecting (many many years ago) was British cavalry swords. Eventually I came into the fascinating area between these and those of the native cavalry units of the Raj, then the hybrids of tulwars with British blades and so on.
With this it was inevitable that I became enthralled with Indian arms themselves, but always completely intrigued by the forms made for the Indian units, such as tulwars made by MOLE etc.


Hi Jim,

Always good to meet somebody who has travelled the same path! You are quite right, one interest usually leads to another, and I am no exception. The lions share of my Anglo Indian swords have all been sold to one advanced collector, who is currently writing a book on the subject, which I am much looking forward to.

I have, over the years (and I suspect, like many people here) accumulated and dispersed several collections covering various aspects of arms and armour. The joy for me was always the thrill of the chase, followed closely by finding out more about the objects themselves, the people that carried them, and the culture surrounding those people, at that particular place in time.

I am now fortunate that I can devote more time to the research aspect, and hopefully, in the fullness of time, shall be able to advance our knowledge in one or two areas which are still a little foggy. (Even if it is only a shuffle, rather than a leap!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

It is interesting to know of your example of the P08, and I really would be interested to know more on it. I did not wish to divert the momentum on this thread on tulwars, so perhaps we could start a thread on swords of the Indian cavalry.....definitely a topic worthwhile of its own focus.


A splendid idea. I shall have to search some old hard drives for some images of my Anglo Indian collection, but I am sure I can contribute to the new thread which Jens has so kindly set up for us. Luckily I have retained one or two special pieces, which may be of interest.
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Old 28th July 2015, 06:24 PM   #43
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Default A link between the two threads, for future reference.

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