Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 22nd May 2012, 04:22 PM   #1
delor
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Marseille - France
Posts: 73
Default The making of a kindjal

Dear friends,

some monthes ago, I had been authorized by the forum administrators to show you a brand new yatagan I had made, and I had chance to have some very interesting discussions with some of you about various issues concerning my work versus genuine ancient arms.

Today, I'm starting a new commission, a set of two caucasian arms, a kindjal and a shashka. First I shall be making the kindjal, and only after that the shashka.
I would greatly appreciate if I could discuss this work with you, just as we did for the yatagan, but doing it before I start would help me to avoid mistakes and solve some technical issues.

The kindjal is going to be plain carbon steel - no damascus - with satin polishing. The blade will have one non centered fuller and a wood or horn handle. The scabbard will be made of wood covered with leather. Both handle and scabbard will have some silver fittings with chasing / chiseling work and niello (and the same fittings will later be made for the shashka too).

My first issue is about the blade itself. I have no idea whether it should be flexible or not, and I don't know precisely what its thickness should be, from its base to its tip (distal tape).
From photos, I think it should be quite thick - but how thick exactly I can't say - and very unflexible... but I'm not sure to be right !
Would you be so kind to help me answer these very first questions ?

Thanks a lot for your help and advices, and kind regards,

Bernard
delor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd May 2012, 06:37 PM   #2
Atlantia
Member
 
Atlantia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The Sharp end
Posts: 2,928
Default

Hi Bernard,

Pattern welded can look very nice

Here is my Kindjal for your consideration. I only have the one, but luckily for me it has a rather special blade (In fact apart from one on hermann-historica it's the best I've seen by a country mile).
The blade is not flexible. There is no distal taper until the parallel edged section ends, then it's quite a mild 'thinning'. The fullers mean that the widest part of the blade is just after the end of the fullers where the distal taper starts, which leading to a long diamond sction point is almost like an Indo-Persian armour piercing point. If you need any dimensions, want to discuss construction or POB etc, let me know.

my Kindjal

Last edited by Atlantia : 22nd May 2012 at 08:26 PM.
Atlantia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd May 2012, 09:55 PM   #3
delor
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Marseille - France
Posts: 73
Default

Hi Atlantia,

thanks you for your reply.
I do agree that pattern welded looks very nice. I would have loved to make it with twisted patterns just as yours (a really beautiful one) , but unfortunately I could not convince the buyer...

About the thickness of the blade : my feeling is that is could be around 8mm (0.31 inches) Could you please tell me how thick is yours ?

The commission is based on a genuine model that has been shown on ebay. I don't think I might post here the photos from ebay, but I will post drawings in some times. Then, more questions will certainly come along as the work goes on.

Thanks a lot !

Bernard
delor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd May 2012, 10:30 PM   #4
Atlantia
Member
 
Atlantia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The Sharp end
Posts: 2,928
Default

Hi Bernard.

Weight: 573.8g. POB 11cm from hilt.
It's ok to post photo's from eBay as long as the item is sold not currently for sale (so not an active auction).
Attached Images
 
Atlantia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd May 2012, 11:04 PM   #5
delor
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Marseille - France
Posts: 73
Default

Wow, perfect. Many thanks !
I've just seen that our genuine model is back online on ebay, so no photo right now... I'll post drawings instead !
Regards,
Bernard
delor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd May 2012, 02:06 AM   #6
Atlantia
Member
 
Atlantia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The Sharp end
Posts: 2,928
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by delor
Wow, perfect. Many thanks !
I've just seen that our genuine model is back online on ebay, so no photo right now... I'll post drawings instead !
Regards,
Bernard



Hi Bernard,

Glad to be of help. Look forward to seeing the drawings and hope to see the project progress.
What decisions have you made so far concerning construction?
ATB
Gene
Atlantia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd May 2012, 09:47 PM   #7
delor
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Marseille - France
Posts: 73
Default

Hello Gene,
I think that the construction should be quite simple : a tang, two wood or horn scales with big silver rivets. Size will approximatively be the same as yours. I don't see much difficulty here. Do I miss something ?
Regards,
Bernard
delor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th May 2012, 12:50 AM   #8
Atlantia
Member
 
Atlantia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The Sharp end
Posts: 2,928
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by delor
Hello Gene,
I think that the construction should be quite simple : a tang, two wood or horn scales with big silver rivets. Size will approximatively be the same as yours. I don't see much difficulty here. Do I miss something ?
Regards,
Bernard


Hi Bernard,

Will you use a single steel construction? What about tempering? You can see the differential tempering is very visible on mine. I think it's often a feature of Kindjals.

ATB
Gene
Atlantia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th May 2012, 06:46 AM   #9
delor
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Marseille - France
Posts: 73
Default

Hi Gene,

yes I will use single steel. That's the choice of the buyer and I couldn't convince him to make neither twisted core nor layered steel. I confess I'm thinking of making a second one for myself at the same time, this one with twisted patterns...
Differential quenching or tempering is of course possible, that's a point I will discuss with him later. Anyway, it's still possible to make it, and decide after that whether or not to reveal it by acid etching.
Maybe we will make some engraving at the base of the blade, this is still being discussed...

Regards,
Bernard
delor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th July 2012, 05:26 PM   #10
delor
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Marseille - France
Posts: 73
Default

I'm currently discussing the blade details with my customer before I begin the work itself.
Here is the last drawing of the ongoing discussion.
We still have an issue to solve : my customer would like to add the engraving of a russian coat of arms onto the base of the blade. Single fuller blade usually have a deep and narrow fuller. On the other hand, engraved blades usually have several large and shallow fullers.
I'm currently thinking of making a single large and shallow fuller and make the engraving onto it, or maybe starting the fuller a few centimeters after the base of the blade in order to leave enough free space for the engraving.
None of these options is fully consistent with genuine kindjals...
What do you think of this ?
Attached Images
 
delor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th July 2012, 05:43 PM   #11
Atlantia
Member
 
Atlantia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: The Sharp end
Posts: 2,928
Default

Looks great Delor.
How about the coat or arms on the scabbard throat instead?
Atlantia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th March 2014, 12:49 AM   #12
delor
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Marseille - France
Posts: 73
Default

Hi guys,
your help has been very useful !
Although it took a lot of time, this project has successfully ended and I'm quite happy with it (hope you will be too).

Please find some photos I made during the process. I'll be glad to answer your questions and comments.
I'll post in another message all photos of the finished kindjal and scabbard, with the goldsmith's work.

Raw blade


Making of the scabbard






Leather work




Handle


delor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th March 2014, 02:51 AM   #13
delor
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Marseille - France
Posts: 73
Default

More photos of the making :

Quenching




Etching / engraving








delor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th March 2014, 10:35 AM   #14
A.alnakkas
Member
 
A.alnakkas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Kuwait
Posts: 1,248
Default

very nice!!!

New ones are still being made in Zanjan, Iran. Some even have very nice koftgari!
A.alnakkas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th March 2014, 02:43 PM   #15
delor
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Marseille - France
Posts: 73
Default

Thanks a lot !

Here are some photos of the kindjal and its scabbard with all fittings.
As you have seen we finally decided not to put the coat of arms on the throat of the scabbard, but keep the fittings as the original genuine model. We switched to a smaller engraving on the blade with just the owner initials.

All fittings are gilded with niello, and made by a goldsmith I'm working with.









delor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th March 2014, 10:12 PM   #16
archer burak
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: İstanbul
Posts: 22
Default

there is no word absulatly fabulose
archer burak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th March 2014, 12:12 AM   #17
Battara
EAAF Staff
 
Battara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 6,710
Default

Impressive. I bow in your presence!
Battara is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2nd April 2014, 02:00 PM   #18
delor
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Marseille - France
Posts: 73
Default

Thanks a lot to all of you.
I'd like to add a few comments to this work. It has been very instructive to base it on informations from genuine pieces :
- one genuine kindjal that I could not show because at the time photos were from an ongoing auction,
- another one, genuine owned by Atlantia, who had been very kind to give me a number of informations about the various sizes (length, thickness, distal tape...).
I have done my best to remain as close as possible to these informations. From the first one, I took the design of the fittings and niello work. from the second one I took all the relevant dimensions.
The only noticeable difference is assembly of horn pieces for the handle. Although most of it is exactly the same as genuine kindjals, I chose not to hot bend the horn around the blade curvature, but to flatten the steel so that the horn pieces can take place with no constraint. We all have noticed that the parts of the handle often lose adjustements as times passes, and hot formed pieces never keep their exact shape. Flattening the steel takes more time and this is probably why it was not the preferred solution in old times, but for me it looked better.
Apart from this, I believe most of the work is very similar to the usual way of making kindjals.

I have been rather surprised with the usability of the resulting blade. From the measurements given by Atlantia , I was a bit afraid that the blade might be quite heavy and maybe too thick to allow a good edge. On the contrary, it appears to be very "agile", and the edge naturally came extremely sharp with no effort. It clearly shows that this design is very effective as the result of experience, use and adjustments over the years !

The small engraving on the blade is based on a common design I have seen on many others ancient objects, and is composed of a crown and a monogram. According to the client requirements, we used a police that is supposed to be "ancient slavonic", but I must say I don't know much about it...

The fittings have been made by a goldsmith I work with. He is not very familiar with those cultural codes from Caucasus and he noticed some interesting differences from the natural behaviors he already has for occidental craftsmanship. In example, the banner-like pattern that runs all along the scabbard fittings is not left / right symetrical as one would expect it to be. Not very noticeable at first look but very significative regarding the origin of the work.

I believe we now might go on with a shashka to match this kindjal. I'll let you know if this project comes to life, and maybe will ask you again for some help with your irremplacable experience concerning genuine arms.

Kind regards,
Bernard
delor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd April 2014, 04:26 AM   #19
weapons 27
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 449
Default

félicitations pour le travail!!
super travail d'orfèvrerie,
par contre je pense que sur la plupart des kindjal
la poignée ne s"emboite pas dans le fourreau!
quel cuir avez vous utilisé pour recouvrir le fourreau ?
car j'ai quelques restaurations a faire!
merci
antoine
weapons 27 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd April 2014, 07:07 AM   #20
delor
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Marseille - France
Posts: 73
Default

Thanks ! I will use english to answer your questions as this is an english-speaking forum.
You are right to say that on most kindjals the handle and the scabbard do not slot, at least as long as they are not covered with metal fittings, they just juxtapose like this :


But when the handle is metal-covered, the metal fitting at the throat of the scabbard usually slots into the metal fitting of the handle. An enlarged ring of the handle fitting allows the scabbard to fit inside it. You can find many examples in the forum :
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ghlight=kindjal
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...ghlight=kindjal

The scabbard is covered with thinned goat skin (which is commonly used with most of the genuine kindjals)

Regards,
Bernard
delor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd April 2014, 11:03 AM   #21
cicak_cobing
Member
 
cicak_cobing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 20
Default

wow, i'm lost for words..
i cannot imagine the time and effort put into this stunning piece of art..
look forward to see more work-in-progress projects from you here..
cicak_cobing is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 12:34 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.