When in India "died" wootz?

[Emanuel]

Sorry to butt in, I have not read the accounts and first-person sources mentioned here, but I second the question expressed by Mahratt in his first post:

Originally Posted by mahratt

Termination production of wootz steel means the cessation of the production of wootz steel blades?

So do the old accounts refer to the production of the wootz/bulat metal ingots or to the bladesmithing of the sword. Same for museums, does the stated/published provenance refer to the date of accession of the sword to the museum's collection, or the date of the sword's production in the cartouche/stamp?

Consider that by mid 19th century, the British Raj was rolling out railway throughout India. Producing rail stock required modern European industrial methods, not the local artisanal ones. Once a modern steel making industrial process was setup for the rail, it made sense to continue its application to everything else. Therefore the artisanal bloomery steel and phulad/bulat/wootz/crucible steel was rendered fully obsolete. By early 1900s Tata Iron and Steel Company was already setup and producing modern steels for the British.

Possibly wootz ingot production continued sporadically into the late-19th century and beyond where patronage by some Raja families continued and where the craft was able to live on.

I see no reason why wootz sword production would not have continued sporadically until later, whenever wootz ingots were available. There must have been some demand from Raja families, elites, and Sikhs in Rajasthan and elsewhere in spite of the influx of European blades and modern steeles on the markets.

Emanuel

[mahratt]

Originally Posted by Emanuel

Sorry to butt in, I have not read the accounts and first-person sources mentioned here, but I second the question expressed by Mahratt in his first post:

So do the old accounts refer to the production of the wootz/bulat metal ingots or to the bladesmithing of the sword. Same for museums, does the stated/published provenance refer to the date of accession of the sword to the museum's collection, or the date of the sword's production in the cartouche/stamp?

Consider that by mid 19th century, the British Raj was rolling out railway throughout India. Producing rail stock required modern European industrial methods, not the local artisanal ones. Once a modern steel making industrial process was setup for the rail, it made sense to continue its application to everything else. Therefore the artisanal bloomery steel and phulad/bulat/wootz/crucible steel was rendered fully obsolete. By early 1900s Tata Iron and Steel Company was already setup and producing modern steels for the British.

Possibly wootz ingot production continued sporadically into the late-19th century and beyond where patronage by some Raja families continued and where the craft was able to live on.

I see no reason why wootz sword production would not have continued sporadically until later, whenever wootz ingots were available. There must have been some demand from Raja families, elites, and Sikhs in Rajasthan and elsewhere in spite of the influx of European blades and modern steeles on the markets.

Emanuel

Hello, Emanuel!
You asked good questions.

1) In 1840, the captain of the Russian army Masalsky in Persia watched wootz steel smelting process. And publishes an article about it in 1842 in "Mining Journal".
2) In 1850-ies Russian travelers noted that in Persia in Tehran do many wootz blades for sale.
3) there Bukhara saber in Russian museum (wootz blade), on which is written, that the master did it in 1860.
4) In the Russian museums have some Bukharian swords and sabers from wootz steel, which were donated from the Emir of Bukhara in 1880-1890 years.

On the situation in India, I totally agree with you. And you're right that the local production of wootz steel in India would continue (small amounts) until the end of the 19th century (Maybe).

[Jim McDougall]

Now that's what I'm talking about!!! Thank you Emanuel for such perfectly posed questions and comments! As one who is seriously (and desperately) trying to learn about this seemingly elusive topic on wootz, these are exactly the things I would wish to learn more on.

I do know that in India, the actual production of wootz ingots was heavily impeded in the mid 19th c. by British authorities, and as noted, the railways and infrastructure being implemented there was bringing in not only their steel product but production methods in degree.

I have always been under the impression that the wootz used in Persia for their blade production had been supplied from India. If that was the case, then where did they acquire material for continued production ? Did they have their own sources outside India?

Good question on the dated provenance of museum exhibits, and in my view, the date of the blade (if known) would be included in the description. The date of accession of the piece would be factored into the catalogued notes. I am also curious though, whether the wootz ingot (as essentially a 'raw and unworked component) would have had dates, places of manufacture or other data as found on bars of precious metals.

Thank you guys!

[ariel]

Jim,
As to your interest in Iranian manufacture of wootz ( fulad), the best source is of course Khorasani's book "Arms and Armor from Iran". He meticulously cites publeshed literature on each and every subject.

On the subject of interest to you, he reviews a book by Willem Floor "Traditional crafts in Qajar Iran (1800-1925)", Costa Mesa, Mazda Publishers, 2003.

In it , he cites information obtained by de Rochechuart, a secretary of the French Embassy in Iran around 1860 and also by somebody called Olmer ( exact credentials not mentioned).

Olmer reported that only few " damasceners" were left in Isfaghan at his time. The only workshop he was able to find were 4 or 5 people working in a small room in caravanserai., and they seldom crafted swords.
He also reported that in India damask ( wootz) was still manufactured.
This was the so-called " Shah Aqbar" wootz.


Khorasan wootz: both report that all kilns were destoyed by Nader Shah

Neiriz, Shiraz and Arsanjan wootz: both report that the manufacture of it ceased during Safavid dynasty.

Isfaghan wootz: local workers said that all ingots came from Khorasan ( see above. Likely, also Indian). Earlier, Khorasani reviews Biswas, who discussed the issue in 1823 with a trader named Haj Hossein from Isfaghan, who said that wootz was imported there from India, and that Iranians tried to imitate it without success.

Khorasani further reviews accounts of multiple travelers and natives between 12 and 19 centuries. All report withessing making of blades in Iran, but nobody ever mentioned witnessing or getting any information on actual manufacture of wootz ingots.

This does not mean that there were no solitary foci of wootz-making in Iran, but likely most of them also went the way of Dodo by the mid-19 century.

We already know what happened in India.

As to the inscriptions, Khorasani not unreasonably states that by the mid-19 century Iranians rarely manufactured shamshirs and the quality of work went down precipitously. Instead, they put inlaid seals and cartouches on old high quality shamshir blades, and that explains the profusion of Qajar-inscribed blades of the highest quality.

In the same vein, as we have discussed earlier, demise of any trade is accompanied by the disappearance of its work force. Nobody wants to learn a difficult and time-consuming process of wootz forging in the absence of demand for the final product. Thus, while it might be possible to find an occasional low-quality newly made wootz blade in , say, 1870-1880, even 10-20 years later it would be virtually unrealistic. The beautiful wootz daggers from Central Asian Khanates ( the last source of wootz weapons in European museums) given to the Tsars were just reworked and garishly decorated old Persian pesh-kabzes and kards.

I specifically wish to address Emanuel's suggestion that small pockets of bladesmiths capable of forging wootz blades might have been preserved by the Rajas. It would be strange, IMHO, for a Raja to collect newly made swords without history and of a purportedly low quality ( vs. truly old samples).

But I went over Elgoods book describing swords and daggers of Jaipur court.

There are plenty of very complex wootz daggers and long bladed weapons dated first half of 19 century or earlier. I could not find a single wootz khanjar or saber from the second half of the 19th century: all plain steel. There were a couple of katars with small insertions of wootz segments, but that was all. Correct me if I am wrong. I guess, Indian Rajas might have supported local masters, but there were no longer any worthy wootz specialists at that time.

Yes, I know, it was long :-)))

[mahratt]

About the book mr. Khorasani "Arms and Armor from Iran". I think that mr. Khorasani do not know the Russian language and do not read books by Russian authors published in the 19th century (By the way, this does not make the book mr. Khorasani less good. This is an interesting book. Although, it is like any book have controversial moments). This is normal. You can not know everything. Very few Russian books in the 19th century was translated into English and French. Although the Russian travelers, merchants, officers and diplomats were in the 19th century in Persia more often and longer the British and especially the French (it's easy to explain - Russian a little closer to Persian than the UK and France).

I did not write "everywhere in Persia in the 1850s did a lot of years of wootz blades." I'm talking about the fact that the manufacture of blades from wootz seen Russian in Tehran. And what they said casually, not seeing it as something wonderful. That is, it was for their not strange and startling.

Until the 1880s, demand for the wootz blades in Central Asia - very high. And apparently, the main demand was for the blades of swords. Why until 1880s? Because only in the 1880s Russian troops seized the fortress Turkmen Gkok Tepe. It was only in the 1880s Turkmen tribes (Tekins) were disarmed. Turkomans were not able to do wootz blades themselves and bought them in Persia (in mid-late 19 centry).
It makes sense to write in the blade, which is made in the 19th century: "Made in 1750, the year." This makes the blade more valuable. It makes no sense to write in the blade, made in the 18th century or early 19th century: "made in 1870".

Regarding damask in India in the 19th century. R. Elgood book - an excellent book. But I think in India is not only the arsenal in Jaipur .... Also, as modern collectors, any Raja had to appreciate more older blades (IMHO)

[Jim McDougall]

Ariel, thank you for taking the time to assemble the very detailed synopsis on the material which has come from the book by Manoucher. I have not seen the book, but it seems to have remarkably cited references which provide interesting perspective on the manufacturing of wootz blades in Iran.
Good point on the demise of the quality and nature of a certain trade such as production of wootz and it would seem of the blades as well. It does seem we see evidence of that disappointing phenomenon around us constantly, despite advances in technology.

As I have noted, this subject is admittedly outside my usual scope of study, but I find it very interesting, and I am learning considerably thanks to the core discussion here and those who have entered relevant observations and notes.

Returning to the original topic of wootz production in India, it seems curious to me that a considerable number* of the works of European scientists and writers who were studying and trying to duplicate the significant character of Indian wootz were writing in the beginning to near mid 19th century. With the profound British presence in India throughout the regions noted for their wootz production , why would they not have simply visited and observed and analyzed these processes?
Is it possible that the known locations in Hyderabad, Deccani areas, Mysore, Karnataka, Tamil Nadu and others had indeed exhausted sources of ore, in addition to depletion of work forces and had indeed ceased?
This is I think one of the things that seems to evade specific mention in the references.

* I observed this in a lengthy bibliography in an article on Indian wootz online

In the often cited article on wootz (Damascus) steels by Verhoefen, he suggests that the last blades of 'high quality' damascene patterns is uncertain, but probably would range to about c. 1750.

While perhaps the notation of 'high' quality might suggest that the continued blade production may have been lesser quality, but it does not specify, nor note that it had ceased.

It seems the problem of identifying the more defined range of the end of the production of wootz in India in the conventional manner in which it had been produced since ancient times in extremely problematic .

Again, I think that perhaps a more direct answer to this question may reside within the text of the apparently considerable references that are listed in volume in many of these articles and books.

I really do appreciate the efforts placed here in discussing this, and must say it has encouraged me personally to try to look further into those.
As Mahratt has well noted, one cannot know everything......I guess that's why we keep looking

[mahratt]

I found another interesting article in 1842. It's called: "Notes on forged wootz steel in Bukhara". The author - Colonel of the Russian army - Butenev. The author writes that according to his information wootz in Bukhara Khanate unknown how to smelt. But of imported wootz - made blades. Wootz brought to Bukhara (according to him) from Persia.