Miniature toy petronel info

wheellock95 · 29th July 2022, 12:15 PM

I just acquired what I believe to be a toy petronel, dating from the 17th century but that is about everything I know about it. Does anybody know what half the 17th century this could date from judging by the shape of the pommel ? Look forward to hearing any information.

Raf · 29th July 2022, 12:55 PM

Congratulations on a very rare example. From the attached you can see that it once had a fully functional matchlock firing mechanism , now missing. Looking on the PAS database you will see plenty of other examples which usually have only the flash pan for manual ignition. The petronel form seems to have persisted probably into the eighteenth century but I am confident that your example is certainly early seventeenth century although you could argue the ball but makes it possibly late sixteenth century.

wheellock95 · 29th July 2022, 01:03 PM

Wow that’s incredible. All of the other examples I have seen have the same shaped pommel as the one you pictured but I haven’t seen one with a round ball but before. late 16th century would be quite amazing

Fernando K · 30th July 2022, 08:05 PM

hello
I think this is a toy and for that reason, it is missing the lid of the bowl (bread)
affectionately

wheellock95 · 30th July 2022, 08:13 PM

Yes it is a toy as I stated in the title

wheellock95 · 31st July 2022, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fernando K

hello
I think this is a toy and for that reason, it is missing the lid of the bowl (bread)
affectionately

I’m unsure what you mean by it is missing the lid of the bowl(bread)

Raf · 31st July 2022, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheellock95

I’m unsure what you mean by it is missing the lid of the bowl(bread)

I think Fernando K may mean a lid to the flashpan. To be clear the missing matchlock mechanism is exactly the same as the example I posted. The screw for the trigger return spring is present and the two holes for mounting the mechanism can be clearly seen . In principle its the same as any European matchlock but the form seems to be unique to these toy pistols. The second image shows the more frequently found example with a fishtail but and ring and dot decoration. Early seventeenth century in form but I suspect made over a much longer period .

if anyones wondering about the strange shape of the end of the barrel on the second example this is actually the end of the ramrod which is reversed and screwed into the barrel

corrado26 · 31st July 2022, 01:42 PM

In one of my drawers I found a toy miniature of a matchlock pistol unfortunately missing the cock. It is 77 mm long and made of bronce. The former owner once told me that this item has been found in the mud of the river Thames near London.

Raf · 31st July 2022, 02:13 PM

The ball but on this one looks completely wrong.

wheellock95 · 31st July 2022, 03:08 PM

Corrado did you get yours from the original finder as I see someone online is selling re casts of an original that are identical to your example ?

corrado26 · 31st July 2022, 03:39 PM

I got it some years ago from a collector friend, but do not know where it came from, sorry.

wheellock95 · 31st July 2022, 03:57 PM

Raf, would these more complex toy petronels have been quite a high end toy at the time ? As I can’t imagine these being cheap when first produced ?

Raf · 31st July 2022, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheellock95

Raf, would these more complex toy petronels have been quite a high end toy at the time ? As I can’t imagine these being cheap when first produced ?

A lot of the early ones are river finds from the Thames. Maybe a more affluent market. An image from Noel Hulme- All the Best Rubbish.
Sound advice

wheellock95 · 1st August 2022, 08:23 PM

Yes I’ve heard that they have found some in the Thames. My example was found in a field near Newbury, Berkshire in England. I am also in the process of purchasing one found in Scotland so it seems they were produced all throughout the UK.

wheellock95 · 11th August 2022, 11:47 PM

Raf I believe there is less shot half way still stuck in the barrel, is there a way to try and get this out ?

ausjulius · 31st August 2022, 10:49 PM

To remove the stuck ball.. If it is lead you can use a special tool to remove the stuck lead ball it is like a corkscrew on a cleaning rod.. But these are made only in large sizes.. I dont know the bore size.. If its lightly stuck in a small bore you can take an aircompressor nozzle make a tight seal on the touch hole and fire a shot of compressed air down the barrel.. It will work especially if you put some fine machine oil or wd40 down first. Put a little at both the touch hole and the muzzel and then send the air down.. You can also loosen it by putting some cleaning liquid down and boiling the gun in how water then oil.. Then compressed air.. Keep you eyes clear of the muzzel....

29th July 2022, 12:15 PM	#1
wheellock95 Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 43	Miniature toy petronel info I just acquired what I believe to be a toy petronel, dating from the 17th century but that is about everything I know about it. Does anybody know what half the 17th century this could date from judging by the shape of the pommel ? Look forward to hearing any information. Attached Images

29th July 2022, 12:55 PM	#2
Raf Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 238	Congratulations on a very rare example. From the attached you can see that it once had a fully functional matchlock firing mechanism , now missing. Looking on the PAS database you will see plenty of other examples which usually have only the flash pan for manual ignition. The petronel form seems to have persisted probably into the eighteenth century but I am confident that your example is certainly early seventeenth century although you could argue the ball but makes it possibly late sixteenth century. Attached Images

31st July 2022, 01:42 PM	#8
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,166	In one of my drawers I found a toy miniature of a matchlock pistol unfortunately missing the cock. It is 77 mm long and made of bronce. The former owner once told me that this item has been found in the mud of the river Thames near London. Attached Images

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29th July 2022, 01:03 PM	#3
wheellock95 Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 43	Wow that’s incredible. All of the other examples I have seen have the same shaped pommel as the one you pictured but I haven’t seen one with a round ball but before. late 16th century would be quite amazing

30th July 2022, 08:05 PM	#4
Fernando K Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 663	hello I think this is a toy and for that reason, it is missing the lid of the bowl (bread) affectionately

30th July 2022, 08:13 PM	#5
wheellock95 Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 43	Yes it is a toy as I stated in the title

31st July 2022, 02:13 PM	#9
Raf Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 238	The ball but on this one looks completely wrong.

31st July 2022, 03:08 PM	#10
wheellock95 Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 43	Corrado did you get yours from the original finder as I see someone online is selling re casts of an original that are identical to your example ?

31st July 2022, 03:39 PM	#11
corrado26 Member Join Date: Dec 2014 Location: Black Forest, Germany Posts: 1,166	I got it some years ago from a collector friend, but do not know where it came from, sorry.

31st July 2022, 03:57 PM	#12
wheellock95 Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 43	Raf, would these more complex toy petronels have been quite a high end toy at the time ? As I can’t imagine these being cheap when first produced ?

1st August 2022, 08:23 PM	#14
wheellock95 Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 43	Yes I’ve heard that they have found some in the Thames. My example was found in a field near Newbury, Berkshire in England. I am also in the process of purchasing one found in Scotland so it seems they were produced all throughout the UK.

11th August 2022, 11:47 PM	#15
wheellock95 Member Join Date: Apr 2020 Posts: 43	Raf I believe there is less shot half way still stuck in the barrel, is there a way to try and get this out ?

31st August 2022, 10:49 PM	#16
ausjulius Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: musorian territory Posts: 415	To remove the stuck ball.. If it is lead you can use a special tool to remove the stuck lead ball it is like a corkscrew on a cleaning rod.. But these are made only in large sizes.. I dont know the bore size.. If its lightly stuck in a small bore you can take an aircompressor nozzle make a tight seal on the touch hole and fire a shot of compressed air down the barrel.. It will work especially if you put some fine machine oil or wd40 down first. Put a little at both the touch hole and the muzzel and then send the air down.. You can also loosen it by putting some cleaning liquid down and boiling the gun in how water then oil.. Then compressed air.. Keep you eyes clear of the muzzel....