What kind of iron ?

paolo · 30th June 2008, 11:43 AM

Hi all,
I have recently got this kudi tranchang. I etched (lightly) the blade and I found a pattern that IMO is nor pamor nor laminated steel. It looks to me like a not too contrasting wootz

, but I must be wrong because this kind of iron be very unusual for this area and for this kind of tool/weapon.
May I have Your opinion ?
Thank You
Paolo

The pics of the blade close ups are the best I can do.

Atlantia · 30th June 2008, 04:32 PM

Hi Paolo,
Its a nice thing for sure! I'm not familiar with them, so I'm not sure how the steel/iron is produced.
So I'm just gonna throw some thoughts out there.
Could the steel be produced from a mixture of salvaged/reclaimed ferrous items which may result in a final product with 'hard spots'?
I know that this can be the case even with industrially produced western steel from recycled sources, I wonder if the larger 'spots' which look almost like a birds eye or raindrop pattern could be something to do with an accidental mixture of steel grades not completely mixing in the smelting process.

How oxidised was the surface before you etched it?
Is some of the pattern from cleaning out the pitting?
If you can remove the blade you could 'recut' an area of the tang to completely flat and polished then etch that area and see what pattern emerges?

Edit:

Do the wootz style patterns diminish where the blade looks to have been filed (As in where the surface has been cut back)?
Just been comparing it with bits of steel I've got laying around, sadly I've no actual 'wootz' but I've got some pattern welded.

paolo · 30th June 2008, 05:42 PM

Hi Atlantia,
Thank You for Your thoughts.
I try to give some answers. I received the kudi polished, with the trucks of file You saw, so I don't know the oxidation degree it had.
I looked under some patterns, so I etched the blade before with citric acid and then (only few seconds with a brush) with ferric chloride diluted 1 : 3 with distilled water (the spine has brass and copper inlays). I don't think that the patterns are dued to the rust (or pitting) removed (but it's only my opinion).
I don't want to remove the blade from the shaft; You are right when say that "... patterns diminish where the blade looks to have been filed "
So

Paolo

paolo · 30th June 2008, 05:45 PM

I forgot, very nice blade You have . May You send pics of all the weapon ?
Paolo

Atlantia · 30th June 2008, 11:39 PM

Its certainly an interesting thing Paolo, is it a weapon?
How long is is?

I think that your etching looks great as it has 'evened out' the colour of the steel.

There must be metal specialists on this BB who can offer a more informed analysis than mine?

Hopefully some other board members will have similar examples which can be compared.
Alternatively can you research the construction techniques on the net to get some clues as to how the metal is forged etc?

P.S. Thanks, the blade is a Bhuj.

kai · 1st July 2008, 02:25 AM

Hello Paolo,

That's not wootz. I suspect that this pattern developed from heat treatment of monosteel (this usually happens by chance).

Regards,
Kai

paolo · 1st July 2008, 10:13 AM

Hi Kai,
I suspected it was monosteel, but I didn't know that the heat treatment on this kind of iron may cause this kind of (so wide spread) pattern.

Atlantia,
the kudi tranchang is 65 cm long (25,5 inches).
On Van Zonneveld book " traditional weapons of the indonesian archipelago" it is so described : a knife with a fanifully shaped blade and a long hilt, to which magical powers are attributed.

Paolo

katana · 1st July 2008, 08:43 PM

I remember seeing a sword with a 'wootz-like' pattern, Lew kindly re-educated me with the notion of shear steel, but this type of steel was mass produced late 19thC -early 20th C. It may be possibly 're-cycled' shear steel and forged into this interesting piece.

Regards David

Lew · 1st July 2008, 09:08 PM

I think this is what my bladesmith friend calls the orange peel effect. Comes from over heating the steel during the forging process I think. This causes a a growth in the carbide stucture which ends up looking like an orange peel.

Lew

paolo · 2nd July 2008, 08:52 AM

Lew,
What You suggest to do ?
Paolo

Lew · 2nd July 2008, 11:16 AM

Do nothing my friend it looks fine to me

Lew

paolo · 2nd July 2008, 02:56 PM

I follow Your advice.
Thank You
Paolo

30th June 2008, 11:43 AM	#1
paolo Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 173	What kind of iron ? Hi all, I have recently got this kudi tranchang. I etched (lightly) the blade and I found a pattern that IMO is nor pamor nor laminated steel. It looks to me like a not too contrasting wootz , but I must be wrong because this kind of iron be very unusual for this area and for this kind of tool/weapon. May I have Your opinion ? Thank You Paolo The pics of the blade close ups are the best I can do. Attached Images

30th June 2008, 04:32 PM	#2
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi Paolo, Its a nice thing for sure! I'm not familiar with them, so I'm not sure how the steel/iron is produced. So I'm just gonna throw some thoughts out there. Could the steel be produced from a mixture of salvaged/reclaimed ferrous items which may result in a final product with 'hard spots'? I know that this can be the case even with industrially produced western steel from recycled sources, I wonder if the larger 'spots' which look almost like a birds eye or raindrop pattern could be something to do with an accidental mixture of steel grades not completely mixing in the smelting process. How oxidised was the surface before you etched it? Is some of the pattern from cleaning out the pitting? If you can remove the blade you could 'recut' an area of the tang to completely flat and polished then etch that area and see what pattern emerges? Edit: Do the wootz style patterns diminish where the blade looks to have been filed (As in where the surface has been cut back)? Just been comparing it with bits of steel I've got laying around, sadly I've no actual 'wootz' but I've got some pattern welded. Last edited by Atlantia; 30th June 2008 at 04:50 PM.

1st July 2008, 09:08 PM	#9
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	I think this is what my bladesmith friend calls the orange peel effect. Comes from over heating the steel during the forging process I think. This causes a a growth in the carbide stucture which ends up looking like an orange peel. Lew Last edited by LOUIEBLADES; 1st July 2008 at 09:19 PM.

30th June 2008, 05:42 PM	#3
paolo Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 173	Hi Atlantia, Thank You for Your thoughts. I try to give some answers. I received the kudi polished, with the trucks of file You saw, so I don't know the oxidation degree it had. I looked under some patterns, so I etched the blade before with citric acid and then (only few seconds with a brush) with ferric chloride diluted 1 : 3 with distilled water (the spine has brass and copper inlays). I don't think that the patterns are dued to the rust (or pitting) removed (but it's only my opinion). I don't want to remove the blade from the shaft; You are right when say that "... patterns diminish where the blade looks to have been filed " So Paolo

30th June 2008, 05:45 PM	#4
paolo Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 173	I forgot, very nice blade You have . May You send pics of all the weapon ? Paolo

30th June 2008, 11:39 PM	#5
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Its certainly an interesting thing Paolo, is it a weapon? How long is is? I think that your etching looks great as it has 'evened out' the colour of the steel. There must be metal specialists on this BB who can offer a more informed analysis than mine? Hopefully some other board members will have similar examples which can be compared. Alternatively can you research the construction techniques on the net to get some clues as to how the metal is forged etc? P.S. Thanks, the blade is a Bhuj.

1st July 2008, 02:25 AM	#6
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,218	Hello Paolo, That's not wootz. I suspect that this pattern developed from heat treatment of monosteel (this usually happens by chance). Regards, Kai

1st July 2008, 10:13 AM	#7
paolo Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 173	Hi Kai, I suspected it was monosteel, but I didn't know that the heat treatment on this kind of iron may cause this kind of (so wide spread) pattern. Atlantia, the kudi tranchang is 65 cm long (25,5 inches). On Van Zonneveld book " traditional weapons of the indonesian archipelago" it is so described : a knife with a fanifully shaped blade and a long hilt, to which magical powers are attributed. Paolo

1st July 2008, 08:43 PM	#8
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	I remember seeing a sword with a 'wootz-like' pattern, Lew kindly re-educated me with the notion of shear steel, but this type of steel was mass produced late 19thC -early 20th C. It may be possibly 're-cycled' shear steel and forged into this interesting piece. Regards David

2nd July 2008, 08:52 AM	#10
paolo Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 173	Lew, What You suggest to do ? Paolo

2nd July 2008, 11:16 AM	#11
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Do nothing my friend it looks fine to me Lew

2nd July 2008, 02:56 PM	#12
paolo Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 173	I follow Your advice. Thank You Paolo