A RECENTLY ACQUIRED CUP HILT SWORD FOR COMMENTS

[Jim McDougall]

Always excited to see cup hilts as you know, and good to see the formidable character deftly holding one in the last photo. A very nice grouping you have Fernando, I am of course envious

This example is interesting, and I have always wondered about the undulating blades on these (often colloquially and it seems incorrectly, called flamberge).
I had thought that perhaps these kinds of blades alluded in the course of chivalry to the 'flaming sword that guarded the gates of Eden'. There seems to be a great deal of perspective regarding the purposes of the serrated edge on blades, and whether they had distinct purpose or how much was simply symbolic or allusion.

Obviously there are no markings or you would have mentioned them. I have always thought, as per most references I have seen, that the cuphilt was a form which did not begin as such much before about 1640.
The form held into the early 18th century but waned outside the Spanish sphere, where it remained in use by Portuguese and Spanish well into the century.


These are my understandings, and I would look forward to hearing the opinions and holdings of those here who are far better versed in this field than me. I would like to know more on the purpose (if any) of the undulating blade; if my understanding of the time range of the cuphilt is in line; and more on the more solid hilt as opposed to those pierced and ornate in engraved design.

It is indeed interesting at the length of the blade, which seems extraordinary. I am under the impression that with these swords being notably aligned with fashions of the times, that the inevitable competition element might bring such extremes. As a sword in use in accord with fencing systems of the period, a blade this length would be remarkably awkward (slow) in my thought.

[Interested Party]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

It is indeed interesting at the length of the blade, which seems extraordinary. I am under the impression that with these swords being notably aligned with fashions of the times, that the inevitable competition element might bring such extremes. As a sword in use in accord with fencing systems of the period, a blade this length would be remarkably awkward (slow) in my thought.

Yes but one would still have to get by the point and there may have been a left hand weapon as well.

I had always assumed the undulations worked like a steak knife for push and draw cuts, as well as discouraging grabbing the blade to control it. I'm sure there were some students of Fabris still floating around I have always wondered how useful their left arms were after surviving a few fights deflecting blades with the left hand.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Interested Party

... I had always assumed the undulations worked like a steak knife for push and draw cuts ...

The author of (again) the mentiond book considers it has a multiple cutting area, as it would happen with electric knives; a little back and forth move would inflict a quick and deep cut. I don't know if i get his idea !

[midelburgo]

In XVIIth century Spanish language, the half rings of the pas d'ane are called "orejas" (ears).
So I like to classify cup hilts as full ears, half ears and no ears. I believe than rather than to nationality, this is a question of evolution in time and purchasing power.
So closer to 1650, we have mostly full ears, closer to 1680, we have many half ears. And closer to 1700 and beyond we get often no ears.

No ears are cheaper because they do not have to add workmanship to screws, or ricasso plates. They can be sturdier and therefore rather military than civilian. the main disadvantage is that the blade has to fit better. And usually the same types of blades are found with these hilts. There is not the variation that is found with full ears or half ears. For example, as a military weapon, fewer no ears have a thin rapier blade. One of the types usually found is a flambergue. About how this blade works, IIRC Richard Burton has a chapter on it in his book on Swords.

These swords present often associations with Portugal, like the one with the inscription "VIVA O NOSO REI DOM IOSE O PRº DE PORTVGAL" (straight position). There are also exceptions to the ammunition grade, with even a guardapolvo (I own that one).

A curious step in the evolution has iron pieces from the cross at each side of the ricasso. This can be found with or without ears. Probably was the last step before welding the langlets to the cup.

I believe that Hortuño cup hilt has a remounted blade. The oldest cup hilt I know is in a portrait of King Phillip IV by Velazquez from 1627.

[ulfberth]

Congratulations on your new cup hilt Fernando, I like it because unlike most it has the Flamberge blade type and is a long one for this type of cup hilt.
Considering most rapiers of that period had a length around 120 cm or more im not that surprized to see this one with such a long blade, but yours is actualy wide to for a long blade, a very nice one!
kind regards
Ulfberth

[fernando]

Originally Posted by ulfberth

Congratulations on your new cup hilt Fernando, I like it because unlike most it has the Flamberge blade type and is a long one for this type of cup hilt.
Considering most rapiers of that period had a length around 120 cm or more im not that surprized to see this one with such a long blade, but yours is actualy wide to for a long blade, a very nice one!
kind regards
Ulfberth

Thank you so much ... Dirk, my friend .
Kreep safe .

[urbanspaceman]

I thought it looked familiar; I photographed this in the Lisbon Armoury Museum back in 2019. Don't know if it is of interest here but... anyway:

[fernando]

Originally Posted by midelburgo

... I believe that Hortuño cup hilt has a remounted blade. The oldest cup hilt I know is in a portrait of King Phillip IV by Velazquez from 1627.

You certainly know better than me, and i will not refute that. It is just that according to public texts, there is in fact one of his swords in the Armeria with a remounted (XVIII century) small sword hilt, inventory nº 81, and the one dated 1604, inventory 80, Fig. 167, Pag. 230, the one of Filipe III, has no record of having been remounted .


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[midelburgo]

Hello Fernando. I believe the Hortuño sword is artistically not in the style of early XVIIth century but rather c1650. The 1900 catalogue of Real Armeria is plagued with errors and legends.

Norman cites two portraits of Felipe IV with a cup hilt:

- Kunsthistorisches of Wien, dated 1632. (moustache).

- NY Metropolitan, dated 1623. But the sword is just a metallic reflection.

There is another portrait at Escorial with the future Felipe IV as a child, in 1612 by Bartolome Gonzalez.

Carlos II as a sickly child shall be about 1669.
It is a pity there is nothing as clear as Carreño de Miranda portrait of the Duke of Pastrana (c1679).

The "orejas" is what Luis Pacheco de Narvaez calls them in his work about Spanish Destreza "Nueva Ciencia" from 1642. "Patillas" sounds to me as XIXth century.
Actually I do not say Flambergue but Flamigera.
I have seen so many clues towards Portugal on those swords, specially when they have langlets finishing in balls and faceted pear shape pommels, that I think you are right. With the caveat that as Solingen made, they will sell them to any comer.
Burton book shall be easy to find as a pdf on internet. IIRC he planned a 3 volume work but he only finished the first one, with generalities and antiquity. A real pity.

[fernando]

[QUOTE=midelburgo;273216]Hello Fernando. I believe the Hortuño sword is artistically not in the style of early XVIIth century but rather c1650.
I trust your judgement, by all means. I don't have the knowledge to distinguish that, myself.

The 1900 catalogue of Real Armeria is plagued with errors and legends.
Norman cites two portraits of Felipe IV with a cup hilt:
- Kunsthistorisches of Wien, dated 1632. (moustache).
- NY Metropolitan, dated 1623. But the sword is just a metallic reflection.
There is another portrait at Escorial with the future Felipe IV as a child, in 1612 by Bartolome Gonzalez.
Carlos II as a sickly child shall be about 1669.
It is a pity there is nothing as clear as Carreño de Miranda portrait of the Duke of Pastrana (c1679).
Alright, the Armeria catalogue contains errors ... but so many others. Those dark portraits provided by Norman and his judgement may not be error proof, either. For a start, he assumes the cup hilt is (quote) confined to Spain and lands under Spanish influence, that is Southern Italy and the Spanish Nederlands (unquote), making the mistake to leave out Portugal which, by the way, has been under Spanish Monarchy between 1580-1640. The usual cultural flaw of a few scholars, and not only, who think Portugal was a part of Spanish territory.


The "orejas" is what Luis Pacheco de Narvaez calls them in his work about Spanish Destreza "Nueva Ciencia" from 1642. "Patillas" sounds to me as XIXth century.
Noted. i still can't find a term for that over here. The authors of Armeria de Bragança catalogue, attribute to such extensions the same name as the quillons (quartões), as when there are upper and lower ones.

Actually I do not say Flambergue but Flamigera.
Yes, we could also call them in my language flamigeras or flamejantes, but these sound more like Masonic lexicon, from where the terms seem to originate. I find names like ondeada (undulated) more suitable.


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[fernando]

Originally Posted by midelburgo

... The "orejas" is what Luis Pacheco de Narvaez calls them in his work about Spanish Destreza "Nueva Ciencia" from 1642...
... Burton book shall be easy to find as a pdf on internet...

I have managed to get both PDF works for my perusal. Interesting that i use the search button in "Nueva Ciencia" and can only find "oreja" (single), but this referring to the actual phisical ear. To my frustration i fail to spot the cuphilt "orejas".
I have read the Burton's chapter on the waved blad, which is (sort of) consistent with the opinion of the book author i mentioned in post #7 ,as Burton says "The object seems to be that of increasing the cutting surface".

Attached ... and just for fun; fencers in the training floor (1685).


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[fernando]

Originally Posted by midelburgo

... In XVIIth century Spanish language, the half rings of the pas d'ane are called "orejas" (ears)...

I would not know whether such fixation extensions have a name in Portuguese swords lexicon. A.V.B. Norman simply calls them 'arms'. But i see more than one Spanish sources calling those 'patillas' (de sujeción) ...
"La espada del Museo Naval de Madrid es un acero de "cazoleta, atribuida por sus descendientes a Don Pedro Menéndez de Avilés. Hoja estrecha de dos filos, gavilanes rectos. De la cruz sale uno que forma el guardamanos y unas patillas que sujetan la cazoleta".

Originally Posted by midelburgo

I like to classify cup hilts as full ears, half ears and no ears. I believe than rather than to nationality, this is a question of evolution in time and purchasing power.
So closer to 1650, we have mostly full ears, closer to 1680, we have many half ears. And closer to 1700 and beyond we get often no ears...

As i previously noted, i had signs that Portuguese favoured 'more' the welding system. One thing i know is that certain authors, not willing to be compromised with risking to determine whether a (cup hilt) sword is Portuguese or Spanish, simply call them ... Iberian. Having a Portuguese inscription may not be enough to define their origin; i have a cup hilt rapier that i bought from a well known Spanish dealer, with the typical VIVA EL REY DE PORTVGAL and his firm opinion, this sword is Spanish. It is so possible that, due to the two countries proximity, you could order a sword from Spain and later have its blade engraved in Portugal.

Originally Posted by midelburgo

For example, as a military weapon, fewer no ears have a thin rapier blade...

As also military swords are 'hardly' of the 'rapier' type .

Originally Posted by midelburgo

... of the types usually found is a flambergue...

Flamberge, undulated, waved, whatever the name; again i would not know where this fashion apeared in a larger number. But we may be sure that there were designs and processing techniques for all tastes.

Originally Posted by midelburgo

... About how this blade works, IIRC Richard Burton has a chapter on it in his book on Swords...

Ah, how i would love to read that part; but i don't have Burton's work.


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[fernando]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... I have always thought, as per most references I have seen, that the cuphilt was a form which did not begin as such much before about 1640...

You may go further back a little, Jim . The earliest cuphilt detected with its date inscribed on the blade, is a splendid example signed by HORTUÑO DE AGUIRRE (Toledo) in 1604. It is kept in the Armería Real de Madrid and was property of King Felipe III.


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