Is this Assam Rifles sword based on a European design?

sirupate · 11th February 2016, 05:30 PM

Hi guys, not had much luck in the Ethno section so I have come over here for some help.
I took this picture of the below sword at the GM on the recent visit, which was potentially carried by Officers of the 8th Assam Rifles, later 6th GR C.1830, is it based on the French sabres of the same period? or another European's countries sabre?
Thanks in advance Simon

kronckew · 11th February 2016, 07:24 PM

looks like a hussar sabre.

ulfberth · 11th February 2016, 08:25 PM

Hi Sirupate,

That model is the French Napoleonic light cavalry troopers sabre .
The French production years were from 1802 until 1819.
They called the variations in the model year 9 of which they produced 26326 Year 11 and year 13 production numbers were 157830
The Russians had them to most of these are around the 1830'ies.

Kind regards Ulfberth

sirupate · 12th February 2016, 04:23 PM

Hi Ulfberth,

Many thanks, I thought it might be a French design, do you think it is possible that the British Officers in the Gurkhas adopted it for use in India?

ulfberth · 12th February 2016, 04:40 PM

Its Always possible that these were taken after Waterloo and used in the colonies, But I don't know on any official record of that.

Kind regards Ulfberth

Jim McDougall · 12th February 2016, 07:09 PM

Ulfberth is of course spot on with the identification on this most well known French cavalry sabre form, and the later adoption by the Russians.
It is indeed most curious to see a French influence rather than the expected British in regions of Assam.
I am wondering, even if tenuously, if the French presence in Indo-China (now Viet Nam) might have in some way contributed to this interesting sabre of Gurkha units. While the British presence in SE Asia was of course well established, Indo-China was distinctly French, thus predominantly influenced Vietnamese swords of military forms and in degree other.

It seems many SE Asian anomalies extended westward to the Indian subcontinent, and I have even seen katanas from these areas and of course Japanese infuences filter into incidental presence in India. Some years ago I recall trying to discover what in the world a katana was doing in a grouping classified from India

ulfberth · 12th February 2016, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Ulfberth is of course spot on with the identification on this most well known French cavalry sabre form, and the later adoption by the Russians.
It is indeed most curious to see a French influence rather than the expected British in regions of Assam.
I am wondering, even if tenuously, if the French presence in Indo-China (now Viet Nam) might have in some way contributed to this interesting sabre of Gurkha units. While the British presence in SE Asia was of course well established, Indo-China was distinctly French, thus predominantly influenced Vietnamese swords of military forms and in degree other.

It seems many SE Asian anomalies extended westward to the Indian subcontinent, and I have even seen katanas from these areas and of course Japanese infuences filter into incidental presence in India. Some years ago I recall trying to discover what in the world a katana was doing in a grouping classified from India

Hi Jim thanks for your most interesting comment, in fact this would a be logical explanation on how these swords got used in a second life ....
In fact similar practices still continue today

kind regards

Ulfberth

Andreas · 13th February 2016, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

It is indeed most curious to see a French influence rather than the expected British in regions of Assam.
I am wondering, even if tenuously, if the French presence in Indo-China (now Viet Nam) might have in some way contributed to this interesting sabre of Gurkha units. While the British presence in SE Asia was of course well established, Indo-China was distinctly French, thus predominantly influenced Vietnamese swords of military forms and in degree other.

The French also had a colony near Assam, Chandernagore (today Chandannagar)
in West Bengal.
Andreas

sirupate · 13th February 2016, 01:42 PM

Fabulous info guys, many thanks for your comments and thoughts, the very best Simon

sirupate · 13th February 2016, 01:55 PM

In this picture it appears that the Officer of the Sirmoor Rifles (later 2nd GR) in 1827 is wearing a flankers sword of the 1796 LCS variation

Jim McDougall · 13th February 2016, 04:57 PM

[QUOTE=Andreas]The French also had a colony near Assam, Chandernagore (today Chandannagar)
in West Bengal.
Andreas[/QUOTe

Thank you Andreas! That is what I was looking for, but all the French colonial activity I could find in India was down further in Pondicherry etc.
The much nearer geographic location with this brings greater plausibility to the association between French arms and this unit.

RobertGuy · 13th February 2016, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirupate

In this picture it appears that the Officer of the Sirmoor Rifles (later 2nd GR) in 1827 is wearing a flankers sword of the 1796 LCS variation

Sirupate
The hilt looks a little more like a 1788 model. I have an interest as I am trying to place a 1788 style sword that is too light to be a cavalry model and also lacks the distinctive cross style langets of the cavalry sword.

sirupate · 14th February 2016, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andreas

The French also had a colony near Assam, Chandernagore (today Chandannagar)
in West Bengal. Andreas

Thanks for the info and lead Andreas.
Chandannagar was returned to the French in 1816 by the British. The Assam Rifles (then the Cuttack Legion) were raised in 1817 in Cuttack of Orissa (now Odisha) state, which is some 321 miles from Chandannagar, which doesn't sound a lot by today's travels, but back then it was some considerable distance to travel over some very inhospitable terrain. The Cuttack Legion did have a cavalry detachment at that point, but surely they would have used British Patterns?
They spent nearly a year marching from Cuttack to Brahmaputra river and were based in Rangpur (274 odd miles from Chandannar) and they were then called the Rangpur Local Battalion (later Rangpur Light Infantry), which were involved in the first Burma War 1823-1826 about an 870 mile trek
In 1827 it became the Assam rifles and had an increase in company level to twelve, two of which were 'Gurkha'.
From 1829 to 1832 they were fighting in Jorhat some 760 miles from Chandannagar, and from 1834 to 1835 they were fighting the Singpho tribe and so on.
So how did a French Light Cavalry troopers sword made from 1802 to 1819 come to be used by Officers of the Assam Rifles?

sirupate · 14th February 2016, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RobertGuy

Sirupate
The hilt looks a little more like a 1788 model. I have an interest as I am trying to place a 1788 style sword that is too light to be a cavalry model and also lacks the distinctive cross style langets of the cavalry sword.

Hi Robert, the handle of the sword being worn by the Sirmoor Officer looks more like this one to me;

Andreas · 23rd February 2016, 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sirupate

Thanks for the info and lead Andreas.
Chandannagar was returned to the French in 1816 by the British. The Assam Rifles (then the Cuttack Legion) were raised in 1817 in Cuttack of Orissa (now Odisha) state, which is some 321 miles from Chandannagar, which doesn't sound a lot by today's travels, but back then it was some considerable distance to travel over some very inhospitable terrain. The Cuttack Legion did have a cavalry detachment at that point, but surely they would have used British Patterns?
They spent nearly a year marching from Cuttack to Brahmaputra river and were based in Rangpur (274 odd miles from Chandannar) and they were then called the Rangpur Local Battalion (later Rangpur Light Infantry), which were involved in the first Burma War 1823-1826 about an 870 mile trek
In 1827 it became the Assam rifles and had an increase in company level to twelve, two of which were 'Gurkha'.
From 1829 to 1832 they were fighting in Jorhat some 760 miles from Chandannagar, and from 1834 to 1835 they were fighting the Singpho tribe and so on.
So how did a French Light Cavalry troopers sword made from 1802 to 1819 come to be used by Officers of the Assam Rifles?

If there is only one example in the museum, I suppose it could be a private purchase (or capture) sword and only carried by a single officer, not the standard regimental sword.
Andreas

sirupate · 26th February 2016, 09:20 AM

That it certainly could be Andreas, and certainly Cavalry Officers on the Indian continent appear to have had more leeway in what they carried. But I am not sure about the Infantry.
Checking the Nassuree history (Captain Kennedy 2OC bought the following to comply with the following orders) of 15th August 1829 from General Orders of the Commander in Chief it says the following;
1. A Regimental sword
2. A Patent leather sword belt, gilt furniture with tache and straps
3. A Black leather Sword knot
4. An extra steel scabbard
5. A black patent pouch with silver lion's head, whistle chain and bugle on pouch
6. A regimental pouch
7. An oilskin bag for sword
So it would seem that they were pretty strict on what you could and could not wear

11th February 2016, 05:30 PM	#1
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	Is this Assam Rifles sword based on a European design? Hi guys, not had much luck in the Ethno section so I have come over here for some help. I took this picture of the below sword at the GM on the recent visit, which was potentially carried by Officers of the 8th Assam Rifles, later 6th GR C.1830, is it based on the French sabres of the same period? or another European's countries sabre? Thanks in advance Simon Attached Images

13th February 2016, 01:55 PM	#10
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	In this picture it appears that the Officer of the Sirmoor Rifles (later 2nd GR) in 1827 is wearing a flankers sword of the 1796 LCS variation Attached Images

26th February 2016, 09:20 AM	#16
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	That it certainly could be Andreas, and certainly Cavalry Officers on the Indian continent appear to have had more leeway in what they carried. But I am not sure about the Infantry. Checking the Nassuree history (Captain Kennedy 2OC bought the following to comply with the following orders) of 15th August 1829 from General Orders of the Commander in Chief it says the following; 1. A Regimental sword 2. A Patent leather sword belt, gilt furniture with tache and straps 3. A Black leather Sword knot 4. An extra steel scabbard 5. A black patent pouch with silver lion's head, whistle chain and bugle on pouch 6. A regimental pouch 7. An oilskin bag for sword So it would seem that they were pretty strict on what you could and could not wear Last edited by sirupate; 26th February 2016 at 03:01 PM.

11th February 2016, 07:24 PM	#2
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,150	looks like a hussar sabre.

11th February 2016, 08:25 PM	#3
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 382	Hi Sirupate, That model is the French Napoleonic light cavalry troopers sabre . The French production years were from 1802 until 1819. They called the variations in the model year 9 of which they produced 26326 Year 11 and year 13 production numbers were 157830 The Russians had them to most of these are around the 1830'ies. Kind regards Ulfberth

12th February 2016, 04:23 PM	#4
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	Hi Ulfberth, Many thanks, I thought it might be a French design, do you think it is possible that the British Officers in the Gurkhas adopted it for use in India?

12th February 2016, 04:40 PM	#5
ulfberth Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 382	Its Always possible that these were taken after Waterloo and used in the colonies, But I don't know on any official record of that. Kind regards Ulfberth

12th February 2016, 07:09 PM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,739	Ulfberth is of course spot on with the identification on this most well known French cavalry sabre form, and the later adoption by the Russians. It is indeed most curious to see a French influence rather than the expected British in regions of Assam. I am wondering, even if tenuously, if the French presence in Indo-China (now Viet Nam) might have in some way contributed to this interesting sabre of Gurkha units. While the British presence in SE Asia was of course well established, Indo-China was distinctly French, thus predominantly influenced Vietnamese swords of military forms and in degree other. It seems many SE Asian anomalies extended westward to the Indian subcontinent, and I have even seen katanas from these areas and of course Japanese infuences filter into incidental presence in India. Some years ago I recall trying to discover what in the world a katana was doing in a grouping classified from India

13th February 2016, 01:42 PM	#9
sirupate Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: England Posts: 373	Fabulous info guys, many thanks for your comments and thoughts, the very best Simon

13th February 2016, 04:57 PM	#11
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,739	[QUOTE=Andreas]The French also had a colony near Assam, Chandernagore (today Chandannagar) in West Bengal. Andreas[/QUOTe Thank you Andreas! That is what I was looking for, but all the French colonial activity I could find in India was down further in Pondicherry etc. The much nearer geographic location with this brings greater plausibility to the association between French arms and this unit.