Cirebon hilt?

BluErf · 30th April 2005, 02:36 AM

Hey guys,

We have been calling this kind of hilt "Jawa Demam", and we typically see it on Malay and Sumatran kerises. Interestingly, I acquired this hilt which looked like to be of Cirebon origins from the motifs.

Can anyone confirm if this is from Cirebon? Also, does anybody know what this hilt form is called in Cirebon (or Java)? Thanks.

The other question is -- did the "Jawa Demam" come out of Java to Sumatra and Peninsula Malaysia, or is this a case of influence flowing from Sumatra back to Java?

rasdan · 30th April 2005, 04:05 AM

IMHO jawa demam come from java pasisir. It then reach Palembang and then the rest of Sumatra and Peninsula. The resemblance of cirebon hilts with jawa demam are very close and theres also old specimen (In previous posts) of jawa demam that really looks like cirebon hilts. I think theres no doubt that jawa demam does evolve from this shape. Maybe thats why they call it "jawa" demam. In your case, i dont think it a reverse flow from sumatra to java. My guess is that its a south sumatran piece. Perhaps that tukang loves the motives from cirebon and try to apply it on his hilts. But again..perhaps..

BluErf · 30th April 2005, 12:19 PM

But this hilt's bottom half does not look Sumatran. It looks Javanese. It looks like it was meant to sit on a mendak rather than a pendoko.

tuancd · 30th April 2005, 01:21 PM

HI everyone
Thank you BluErf for this post. It pushes me into the work I’m doing at the moment.
Let’s share with all of you the little knowledge I’m trying to put in order…

As Rasdan say, this type is from the north coast of java ("pasisir" comes from “pasir”: sand and literally means coast and commonly “north coast of java”). This style is more the eastern style of the coast (from Tuban – Surabaya – Pasuruan). You can feel by the design that it is close to the Madura style.
In my opinion, the java deman style comes from java and has evolved to the one of Sumatra. But if you look close to the different styles you can see that according the region the java deman looks sometimes closer to a Garuda and sometimes looks more like the human shape slightly bent forward. For the Malay one, It’s most of the time the garuda type with the high crest (pic 1) . For Sumatra it depends if it comes from Lampung, Palembang, Jambi or else. That’s the richness of the different styles that makes it exiting.
If you take the so-called Rakshasa in the following picture (pic 3) you can notice that the arm goes through the chest like in the java deman. Seated on the throne the legs are bended like on the java deman (pic 4) of course in this one the legs are more abstract than on the rakshasa.
Then the crest is it one like in pictures 1 and 4 or is it an evolution of the garuda munkur like in pic 6.
Still a lot of interrogations…
I’m sure a lot of you will have to talk about that, be my guest… I mean BluErf's guests

BluErf · 1st May 2005, 04:40 AM

Just took a closer look at the leg posture of some of my jawa demam hilt. I noticed that there are in fact 2 leg postures. One squatting (1st pair of pics), the other kneeling on one kneel (2nd pair of pics).

From the 1st pair of pics, we see abstract lines that separates calf from thigh that seem to suggest both legs are squatting "knees-up".

From the 2nd pair of pics, the abstract line separating the right calf from the right thigh seems to suggest the "knee-on-floor" leg. The abstract line separating the left calf and left thigh seems to suggest the "knee-up" leg.

And come to think of it, I have seen other "plain"-type of jawa demam much like the 2nd set squatting with both knees up like the posture of the ornate jawa demam in the 1st set. I think one such example is in Paul's collection. Paul -- could you spare some time to post pics?

Tuan Cedric, your Pic 4 seems to be of the "one-knee-up" form. Do you have any closer shots of the legs of the hilt in Pic 1?

The rashaksa leg posture seems to be of a different nature, closer to Balinese forms (but maybe Balinese hilt forms were influenced by the Javanese rashaksa). The rashaksa has its right leg "knee-up", possibly in a squat on top of a throne. The left leg is covered by motifs, but I suspect is down from the throne, touching the ground. It's a 'macho' way of sitting, I guess, one leg up on the seat, the other down. I think we see reference to such posture in Martin Kerner's keris-griffe book (his bigger book, not the small square book).

This posture is not the only rashaksa posture I have observed. The other posture is like what we see in your pic 6 - both legs squatting knee-up, with both hands on knees, left thumb and right little finger making an interesting sign.

Now, the arms posture of the 1st rashaksa also seems slightly different from the jawa demam's. It is arms crossed over the chest, like the egyptian posture we see on pharoahs' sarcophagi. Jawa demam's posture is right arm pulling a blanket over the left arm. The left arm may be folded vertically and pressed against the body, covered by the blanket.

I have been told that the 'spike' that rises from the back and forms a high point on the back of jawa demam hilt is referred to as the garuda mungkur. The 'beak' at the front of the lowered head is actually the 'tanjak' (headdress) or the 'makhota' (crown).

The other thing I observed is that rashaksa hilts, especially the older forms, tend to have its face looking down, but not as down as the jawa demam hilt. The newer rashaksa hilts tend to look forward.

We see some inter-connections between the rasaksa hilt and the jawa demam, but there are some differences in basic posture which makes one think how the 'evolutionary' jump was made from "sitting on throne, one leg up" and "squatting with both hands on knees" to "kneeling with leg up and right arms over left" and "squatting with right arms over left".

I think as we try to elucidate possible developments of the jawa demam, we may have to keep in mind that there could be 'parallel evolution' going on, just like the evolution of human beings -- different species of human beings actually co-existed and evolved in parallel (e.g. neanderthals, pygmies, and us -- homo sapiens sapiens).

BluErf · 1st May 2005, 04:08 PM

Another kneeler?

tuancd · 1st May 2005, 08:01 PM

Thanks
never noticed the kneeling position. I'll come back on that later. (I'm travelling at the moment and have no way to get to my pics. The knee up and pending leg is a royal position of ease called Rajalila asana (not as usually mentioned lila asana where the leg is not pending from the throne but resting on it). The interesting sign made by the hands and that you are talking about is the Karana mudra to expel demons and other bad spirits. For the standing position or "asana" a common one is one leg bent and one straight which is the Alidha/pratyalidha expressing aggressive attitude of the character.
I'll come back on all of that next week when I'm back in france
Thanks for the nice pics and for sharing your knowledge
Cedric

BluErf · 2nd May 2005, 12:34 AM

Tuan Cedric, thanks for sharing your knowledge too. I have been wanting to find out the significance of the hand signs and the postures for a long time.

I await your next post eagerly.

By the way, is the Alidha/pratyalidha standing position expressed in keris hilts? So far, I have only noticed the Rajalila asana position where one knee is up, the other leg down from the throne. Thanks much!

nechesh · 2nd May 2005, 10:54 PM

Great thread! I think i'll just stand by and learn.

But i would like to to make a comment on Cedric's beautiful photography. Nice shots, very well presented.

tuancd · 12th May 2005, 07:05 PM

Hi!
I'm back in Europe
about the Alidha/pratyalidha standing position, it is highly discussable. You can find some posture in Balinese hilts that are close to it. It's not like the one expressed in Tibetan sculpture (for instance on wood book covers). You never know if the rakshasa or the durga (or else) are really standing up or are seated on the tumpal throne. In the attached picture the durga unveiled has this questionable position. The general fierce attitude can suggest the alidha position which expresses the angry and aggressive look of durga. It is to scare mortal and spirits away. Now, the way it is sculptured you can't really tell if she is seated or not the feet are placed a way which can suggest the standing attitude rather than a seated one. But it's not obvious and I have not seen one hilt that would make it absolutely sure.

BluErf · 15th May 2005, 01:14 PM

Thanks Tuan Cedric, but the posture of Durga unveiled seemed somewhat different from what I've seen on Buddhist rupas. Maybe the stance got modified when it came to Southeast Asia?

Image take from: http://thethankahouse.com/postures_pedistals.html

tuancd · 15th May 2005, 04:51 PM

As I said it's also because it is sculptured on a handle. If the posture couls be on a straight line then it would look like your illustration.
Any ways it's not obvious like some others detail or styles.

BluErf · 16th May 2005, 01:51 PM

Hmmm... You are probably right. Here's a couple more images I got from the net. One was from a previous post here. Aggressive posturing.

tuancd · 17th May 2005, 04:10 PM

Yes definitely. You can see that the posture looks like the Alidha/pratyalidha standing position... But if you look them from the back they look seated and I have not been able to find a seated posture that look like that. You know that all the posture have their meaning (like almost everything in the keris). I find strange that such an important part of the kriss would be sculptured always the same way without a good reason.
I've been through an interesting study about durga
http://www.asianart.com/articles/durga/
and as you'll see in the postures the right foot is almost always upper than the left. Is this the model?

30th April 2005, 02:36 AM	#1
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Cirebon hilt? Hey guys, We have been calling this kind of hilt "Jawa Demam", and we typically see it on Malay and Sumatran kerises. Interestingly, I acquired this hilt which looked like to be of Cirebon origins from the motifs. Can anyone confirm if this is from Cirebon? Also, does anybody know what this hilt form is called in Cirebon (or Java)? Thanks. The other question is -- did the "Jawa Demam" come out of Java to Sumatra and Peninsula Malaysia, or is this a case of influence flowing from Sumatra back to Java? Attached Images

30th April 2005, 01:21 PM	#4
tuancd Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Paris - Bruxelles Posts: 32	HI everyone Thank you BluErf for this post. It pushes me into the work I’m doing at the moment. Let’s share with all of you the little knowledge I’m trying to put in order… As Rasdan say, this type is from the north coast of java ("pasisir" comes from “pasir”: sand and literally means coast and commonly “north coast of java”). This style is more the eastern style of the coast (from Tuban – Surabaya – Pasuruan). You can feel by the design that it is close to the Madura style. In my opinion, the java deman style comes from java and has evolved to the one of Sumatra. But if you look close to the different styles you can see that according the region the java deman looks sometimes closer to a Garuda and sometimes looks more like the human shape slightly bent forward. For the Malay one, It’s most of the time the garuda type with the high crest (pic 1) . For Sumatra it depends if it comes from Lampung, Palembang, Jambi or else. That’s the richness of the different styles that makes it exiting. If you take the so-called Rakshasa in the following picture (pic 3) you can notice that the arm goes through the chest like in the java deman. Seated on the throne the legs are bended like on the java deman (pic 4) of course in this one the legs are more abstract than on the rakshasa. Then the crest is it one like in pictures 1 and 4 or is it an evolution of the garuda munkur like in pic 6. Still a lot of interrogations… I’m sure a lot of you will have to talk about that, be my guest… I mean BluErf's guests Attached Images

1st May 2005, 04:40 AM	#5
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Just took a closer look at the leg posture of some of my jawa demam hilt. I noticed that there are in fact 2 leg postures. One squatting (1st pair of pics), the other kneeling on one kneel (2nd pair of pics). From the 1st pair of pics, we see abstract lines that separates calf from thigh that seem to suggest both legs are squatting "knees-up". From the 2nd pair of pics, the abstract line separating the right calf from the right thigh seems to suggest the "knee-on-floor" leg. The abstract line separating the left calf and left thigh seems to suggest the "knee-up" leg. And come to think of it, I have seen other "plain"-type of jawa demam much like the 2nd set squatting with both knees up like the posture of the ornate jawa demam in the 1st set. I think one such example is in Paul's collection. Paul -- could you spare some time to post pics? Tuan Cedric, your Pic 4 seems to be of the "one-knee-up" form. Do you have any closer shots of the legs of the hilt in Pic 1? The rashaksa leg posture seems to be of a different nature, closer to Balinese forms (but maybe Balinese hilt forms were influenced by the Javanese rashaksa). The rashaksa has its right leg "knee-up", possibly in a squat on top of a throne. The left leg is covered by motifs, but I suspect is down from the throne, touching the ground. It's a 'macho' way of sitting, I guess, one leg up on the seat, the other down. I think we see reference to such posture in Martin Kerner's keris-griffe book (his bigger book, not the small square book). This posture is not the only rashaksa posture I have observed. The other posture is like what we see in your pic 6 - both legs squatting knee-up, with both hands on knees, left thumb and right little finger making an interesting sign. Now, the arms posture of the 1st rashaksa also seems slightly different from the jawa demam's. It is arms crossed over the chest, like the egyptian posture we see on pharoahs' sarcophagi. Jawa demam's posture is right arm pulling a blanket over the left arm. The left arm may be folded vertically and pressed against the body, covered by the blanket. I have been told that the 'spike' that rises from the back and forms a high point on the back of jawa demam hilt is referred to as the garuda mungkur. The 'beak' at the front of the lowered head is actually the 'tanjak' (headdress) or the 'makhota' (crown). The other thing I observed is that rashaksa hilts, especially the older forms, tend to have its face looking down, but not as down as the jawa demam hilt. The newer rashaksa hilts tend to look forward. We see some inter-connections between the rasaksa hilt and the jawa demam, but there are some differences in basic posture which makes one think how the 'evolutionary' jump was made from "sitting on throne, one leg up" and "squatting with both hands on knees" to "kneeling with leg up and right arms over left" and "squatting with right arms over left". I think as we try to elucidate possible developments of the jawa demam, we may have to keep in mind that there could be 'parallel evolution' going on, just like the evolution of human beings -- different species of human beings actually co-existed and evolved in parallel (e.g. neanderthals, pygmies, and us -- homo sapiens sapiens). Attached Images Last edited by BluErf; 1st May 2005 at 10:36 AM. Reason: Mixed up the left leg and right leg description for the 2nd set of pics.

1st May 2005, 04:08 PM	#6
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Another kneeler? Attached Images

12th May 2005, 07:05 PM	#10
tuancd Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Paris - Bruxelles Posts: 32	Hi! I'm back in Europe about the Alidha/pratyalidha standing position, it is highly discussable. You can find some posture in Balinese hilts that are close to it. It's not like the one expressed in Tibetan sculpture (for instance on wood book covers). You never know if the rakshasa or the durga (or else) are really standing up or are seated on the tumpal throne. In the attached picture the durga unveiled has this questionable position. The general fierce attitude can suggest the alidha position which expresses the angry and aggressive look of durga. It is to scare mortal and spirits away. Now, the way it is sculptured you can't really tell if she is seated or not the feet are placed a way which can suggest the standing attitude rather than a seated one. But it's not obvious and I have not seen one hilt that would make it absolutely sure. Attached Images

30th April 2005, 04:05 AM	#2
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 367	IMHO jawa demam come from java pasisir. It then reach Palembang and then the rest of Sumatra and Peninsula. The resemblance of cirebon hilts with jawa demam are very close and theres also old specimen (In previous posts) of jawa demam that really looks like cirebon hilts. I think theres no doubt that jawa demam does evolve from this shape. Maybe thats why they call it "jawa" demam. In your case, i dont think it a reverse flow from sumatra to java. My guess is that its a south sumatran piece. Perhaps that tukang loves the motives from cirebon and try to apply it on his hilts. But again..perhaps..

30th April 2005, 12:19 PM	#3
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	But this hilt's bottom half does not look Sumatran. It looks Javanese. It looks like it was meant to sit on a mendak rather than a pendoko.

1st May 2005, 08:01 PM	#7
tuancd Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Paris - Bruxelles Posts: 32	Thanks never noticed the kneeling position. I'll come back on that later. (I'm travelling at the moment and have no way to get to my pics. The knee up and pending leg is a royal position of ease called Rajalila asana (not as usually mentioned lila asana where the leg is not pending from the throne but resting on it). The interesting sign made by the hands and that you are talking about is the Karana mudra to expel demons and other bad spirits. For the standing position or "asana" a common one is one leg bent and one straight which is the Alidha/pratyalidha expressing aggressive attitude of the character. I'll come back on all of that next week when I'm back in france Thanks for the nice pics and for sharing your knowledge Cedric

2nd May 2005, 12:34 AM	#8
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Tuan Cedric, thanks for sharing your knowledge too. I have been wanting to find out the significance of the hand signs and the postures for a long time. I await your next post eagerly. By the way, is the Alidha/pratyalidha standing position expressed in keris hilts? So far, I have only noticed the Rajalila asana position where one knee is up, the other leg down from the throne. Thanks much!

2nd May 2005, 10:54 PM	#9
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Great thread! I think i'll just stand by and learn. But i would like to to make a comment on Cedric's beautiful photography. Nice shots, very well presented.

15th May 2005, 01:14 PM	#11
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Thanks Tuan Cedric, but the posture of Durga unveiled seemed somewhat different from what I've seen on Buddhist rupas. Maybe the stance got modified when it came to Southeast Asia? Image take from: http://thethankahouse.com/postures_pedistals.html Attached Images

15th May 2005, 04:51 PM	#12
tuancd Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Paris - Bruxelles Posts: 32	As I said it's also because it is sculptured on a handle. If the posture couls be on a straight line then it would look like your illustration. Any ways it's not obvious like some others detail or styles.

16th May 2005, 01:51 PM	#13
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Hmmm... You are probably right. Here's a couple more images I got from the net. One was from a previous post here. Aggressive posturing. Attached Images

17th May 2005, 04:10 PM	#14
tuancd Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Paris - Bruxelles Posts: 32	Yes definitely. You can see that the posture looks like the Alidha/pratyalidha standing position... But if you look them from the back they look seated and I have not been able to find a seated posture that look like that. You know that all the posture have their meaning (like almost everything in the keris). I find strange that such an important part of the kriss would be sculptured always the same way without a good reason. I've been through an interesting study about durga http://www.asianart.com/articles/durga/ and as you'll see in the postures the right foot is almost always upper than the left. Is this the model?