Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 26th December 2016, 03:22 PM   #1
Marcus den toom
Member
 
Marcus den toom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 462
Default Maximilian close helmetfor ID

Recently this close helmet of fluted maximilian type has entered my collection.
It is 32cm high (with lames), 20cm wide at the skull, 26cm from back to visor.
The neck opening is 15 by 16,5cm.
It can be opened by means of a push button (missing) just as the visor (see pictures.)

Can anyone tell me the age and any other relevant information this is my first helmet
Attached Images
      
Marcus den toom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th December 2016, 03:23 PM   #2
Marcus den toom
Member
 
Marcus den toom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 462
Default

More pictures
Attached Images
      
Marcus den toom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th December 2016, 03:23 PM   #3
Marcus den toom
Member
 
Marcus den toom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 462
Default

and more
Attached Images
      
Marcus den toom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th December 2016, 03:25 PM   #4
Marcus den toom
Member
 
Marcus den toom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 462
Default

And more, if need be i have more pictures. Problem is i won't be back until next year after tomorrow.
Attached Images
       
Marcus den toom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th December 2016, 06:05 PM   #5
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 6,858
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus den toom
... and any other relevant information this is my first helmet

I can give you the following relevant information, Marcus: i wouldn't mind having it ... as also being my first one .
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th December 2016, 08:19 AM   #6
iskender
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 60
Default hallo marcus

nice one- piece skullconstruction ,good hammerwork visible from the inside, i suspect you have just entered the most difficult section of collecting arms and armor! best regards iskender
iskender is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th December 2016, 09:27 AM   #7
Cerjak
Member
 
Cerjak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: FRANCE
Posts: 989
Default

Marcus,
I think that the visor is wrong .
If you look at the slots for the eyes you will see that they are too high so would not allow a good vision.
Best
cerjak
Cerjak is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th December 2016, 04:43 PM   #8
Marcus den toom
Member
 
Marcus den toom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 462
Default

Thank you Nando, Iskender and Cerjak

The pictures are all taken slightly from above, had to do it on the table with the most light which was also the table with a lot of toys from my nephews around them the helmet itself is supported by a wooden building block in the pictures hahah.

It lines up perfecty though when it is in its correct angle (neckplates are now too verticaly placed on the pictures, making the chin face upwards as is the visor).
Marcus den toom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th December 2016, 05:45 PM   #9
iskender
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 60
Default good evening!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus den toom
Thank you Nando, Iskender and Cerjak

The pictures are all taken slightly from above, had to do it on the table with the most light which was also the table with a lot of toys from my nephews around them the helmet itself is supported by a wooden building block in the pictures hahah.

It lines up perfecty though when it is in its correct angle (neckplates are now too verticaly placed on the pictures, making the chin face upwards as is the visor).

hello marcus , 10 minutes beforehand i would have posted the message that the helmet of yours would look normal without standing on the woodblock. greetings iskender ( now in cronstadt visiting the old fortifications there)
iskender is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30th December 2016, 10:59 AM   #10
A Senefelder
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 214
Default

Constructionally, based on photos of course, I see lots of things I like, the proper hammer marks inside the bowl indicative of being raised from a single piece of steel as well as the marks inside of the flutes from being worked over stakes, cut washers, beveled exposed plate edges, nice old patina. Is there any chance of getting a weight on it? I'm inclined to think, again based only on pics and not having had it in the hand, that you have an excellent original example of a helmet for this classic Maximillian style from the 1530's.
A Senefelder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 31st December 2016, 07:53 PM   #11
Jim McDougall
Research Consultant
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 6,775
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A Senefelder
Constructionally, based on photos of course, I see lots of things I like, the proper hammer marks inside the bowl indicative of being raised from a single piece of steel as well as the marks inside of the flutes from being worked over stakes, cut washers, beveled exposed plate edges, nice old patina. Is there any chance of getting a weight on it? I'm inclined to think, again based only on pics and not having had it in the hand, that you have an excellent original example of a helmet for this classic Maximillian style from the 1530's.



Alan, thank you so much for responding to the original query concerning date/period on this apparently original example of Maximillian helmet.
As someone with only a surface knowledge of armor and helmets of these times, would you mind saying more on the history of these?

Were these solely for jousting, or were these used in battle as well? Did the fluting have a purpose or was it simply decorative? Why the Maximillian term?
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 1st January 2017, 03:31 AM   #12
batjka
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 29
Default

What kind of suspension would have been used in such helmets? Surely, there must have been something to keep the head from bouncing inside the helmet.

Have you tried it on?
batjka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd January 2017, 03:03 PM   #13
CSinTX
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 120
Default

My knowledge of armor is limited but I am intrigued by the pattern of marks all over this helmet. Was this normal for this style? What would be their purpose or origin?
Attached Images
 
CSinTX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd January 2017, 05:41 PM   #14
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 6,858
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CSinTX
My knowledge of armor is limited but I am intrigued by the pattern of marks all over this helmet. Was this normal for this style? What would be their purpose or origin?

I am certain that Marcus has made a safe deal and this is not a well built late reproduction, given the price such genuine helmets may cost. Say Marcus, hasn't the seller given you evidence of its authencity ?
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd January 2017, 06:00 PM   #15
CSinTX
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 120
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by fernando
and this is not a well built late reproduction,


Could it be an earlier reproduction? Maybe 19th C? I don't really know, I just found the pattern of the marks interesting.
CSinTX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd January 2017, 07:38 PM   #16
Marcus den toom
Member
 
Marcus den toom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 462
Default

It has come to my attention that some people question my original post about the age. As to its provenance, i do not know i bought it at auction without further information other than there assumption it is 19th century.
Some other members told me they know for sure it can't be original, others claim it is.
All i wanted was to verify my own interpretation which differs from auctions most of the time... and i hope that most of you can agree here that auctions don't know everything if anything at all especially about such items as this close helmet.

Please make this a real discussion and not something behind the curtains, because if that is the way things need to go, i am out!

No than, here are some original pieces of armour (as far as i know) with similar markings.
Attached Images
      
Marcus den toom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd January 2017, 07:42 PM   #17
Marcus den toom
Member
 
Marcus den toom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 462
Default

ps Batjka, Yes i tried it on, but my head is to big.. sadly

The liner would have been something like this is suppose.
Attached Images
  
Marcus den toom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd January 2017, 07:49 PM   #18
Marcus den toom
Member
 
Marcus den toom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 462
Default

I specifically looked at tournament armour (stegzeuge) because of the probability of damages.
If anyone has other period armour with damages, please post these. This would be very enlightening.
Attached Images
  
Marcus den toom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 3rd January 2017, 09:42 PM   #19
Jim McDougall
Research Consultant
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 6,775
Default

Marcus, thank you for noting the concerns and comments present outside the discussion here, and I agree, it is best to focus on helmets of this style and original character in examining your example.

There are apparently quite a number of reproduction helms out there available mostly for re enactment and decoration, however these would seem immediately obvious. We must admit that the price realized in this case is incredibly low for an authentic example of this desirable style, so immediately begs the question if is or not.
We always hope to find a 'sleeper' in estate sale or auction, however this is highly unlikely for a specialist auctioneer.

Since here we strive to learn from historic examples, it might have been important to include the description from the source of the example as the discussion would direct to its features and character in compliance with other examples known authentic. If the 19th century description is noted, we should move to prove otherwise.

Thank you for 'staying in' by presenting other examples, and I look forward to others and observations on the elements and fixtures......really want to learn more on these.
No matter what....its quite an attractive helmet!
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th January 2017, 09:33 AM   #20
ulfberth
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 231
Default

Hi Marcus,

thank you for showing us helmets of the same period to compare with.
It does happen and has happened before that auction houses mistakenly label good authentic pieces as 19th C.
That being said, the bigger or more experienced the auction house has, the less this happens.
Looking closely at the helmets presented it seems there are some differences in the impact / pattern strikes .
Most of them have a around dozen of these impact and are different in shape, none have all the same looking impact marks.
The place were these marks visible on the helmets as presented here are in the neck area or the place were a sword blow would have been deflected to in case of a frontal blow.
On the Maximilian Helmet I easily count around 50 impact marks, they all seem to come from the same object the only difference is that some are deeper than others. What concerns me more is that they are structural divided over the whole helmet and appear in places were this helmet would in most cases deflect a hit or blow.
I think we can rule out sword blows completely as many of these strike marks are in the deeper part of the gully or groove.
These impact marks look like they are made by a hammer.
They don't seem to come from a war hammer but rather from the back of a modern hammer.
They have a repetitive similarity,when they were inflected concerning : force , angle, shape of the object and distance , all these circumstances together would be impossible in battle.
In my opinion , the battle blows you see on the other helmets was exactly what they were trying to mimic, but they over did it.
I hate to visualize the situation, a nutcase with other intentions hammering from a distance of 50 CM an otherwise beautiful handmade helmet.
Of course I would like to hear other thoughts as well.

kind regards

Ulfberth
Attached Images
  

Last edited by ulfberth : 4th January 2017 at 09:49 AM.
ulfberth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th January 2017, 11:03 AM   #21
A Senefelder
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 214
Default

Quote:
Alan, thank you so much for responding to the original query concerning date/period on this apparently original example of Maximillian helmet.


Jim, my apologies, im trying to cram in posts in the 10 or so minutes before I leave for work in the morning as I tend to arrive home pretty late. I will try and address this tomorrow morning before I head out.
A Senefelder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th January 2017, 12:12 PM   #22
Marcus den toom
Member
 
Marcus den toom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 462
Default

Hi Ulfberth,

Thank you for your responce, it is much valued. Do you have period armour pictures with more damages for comparison?

As to the auction, i have looked trough there auction archive prior to buying this piece and the only other noteworthy piece of armour was a fluted backplate which reached 10 times their estimate.
Other things like a replica wheellock pistol beeing dated by them as 16/17th century make me somewhat doubt there indebt knowledge, which in all respect is a hard enough.

We know of original pieces of arms and armour beeing molested to add more "colour" to such pieces... problem is that this happened by either people without true knowledge or respect for such items.. thus the colouring outside of the lines.

What i want to say with all of this is that we can not sollely date this helmet on these strange markings. I am far more interested in the construction, the patina inside, and if it is a victorian piece.. how they made it to look like this. Especially the leather strap pieces that are inside the helmet without disturbing the natural (?) patina.


Also does anyone know a way to date the iron, if possible?
Marcus den toom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th January 2017, 02:49 PM   #23
cornelistromp
Member
 
cornelistromp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 906
Default

Marcus,

could you please give the lot description and name of the auction house ?

best,
Jasper
cornelistromp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th January 2017, 04:14 PM   #24
Tony PP
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 26
Default Maximilian helmet.

I like the look of this helmet. Somebody has put a lot of effort in making it. But it gets let down by poorly applied ageing. The exterior marks are as others have said -- Not correct. I would also question the inside patina, from the pictures it looks like it has been rusted artificially. The photographs appear to show bright steel in places under the rust. Next, the visor. Hard to tell from the pictures but the steel looks a little thin, I would also question the burrs left on the inside of the chisel cut openings, not something you would expect from a true artisan. Last bit, the visor construction seems to be overlaid steel plates but the exterior has a shaped but smooth finish. So has this been welded and filed down? Of course fire welding has been around for a long while but this requires heat and hammering but I can see no sign of this on the plates. OK, that's me done--- Age, I don't think it has any. Just my feeling and I am not a expert and have never played with a helmet of this supposed era.
Tony PP is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th January 2017, 05:01 PM   #25
Jim McDougall
Research Consultant
 
Jim McDougall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Route 66
Posts: 6,775
Default

Thank you guys for continuing the discussion in accord with the redirected perspective attending to the fact that this helmet was apparantly labeled as a 19th century representation of a 16th century German Maximillian helmet in a sale.

As a research consultant here on our forum, my concerns are for the accurate and proper notations of examples posted here for discussion so that we might best discuss them accordingly. It is important to place as much information as possible, including any notes and descriptive data already known by the poster as these serve as the benchmark for the discussion. These discussions and the valuable material included in them become part of the comprehensive archives here which help us learn more on the subjects as well as serve as references used widely by other researchers.

Alan, thank you for the note, and I agree, from photos this helmet is pretty impressive, and with your expertise on these, I very much look forward to your more exact assessments when you can.

Jasper, I look forward to your notes as well, and would suggest that we mention the name of the auctioneer here privately only. I look forward to your assistance as well in noting what to look for in authentic examples of these helmets.

Tony, while you suggest you are not an 'expert', your observations are most astute. Thank you.

Marcus, thank you again for posting this helmet, it has given us a great opportunity to learn more on these historic examples, and how we can best recognize both authentic and reproductions, as well as perhaps the netherworld of period or working life composites.

Last edited by Jim McDougall : 4th January 2017 at 05:55 PM.
Jim McDougall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th January 2017, 05:38 PM   #26
Raf
Member
 
Raf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 98
Default Identifying early steel plate

Hi Marcus.
I think the first thing to look for is flaws and inclusions in the plate . Most genuine armour will show some stress cracks , flaws and other imperfections that are part of the material itself and this is something that is difficult to fake. Secondly armour that is either modern or Victorian will invariably have started life as a uniform flat steel plate, as opposed to a lump of material that is beaten out by hand and progressively eased into shape . This tends to produce variations in thickness which exist irrespective of the hammer blows used to shape the piece and can usually be felt by running the plate between your fingers.

As a footnote you might expect an armour of C1530 to have outwardly turned roped edges but this is by no means a definitive guide to date.
Raf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th January 2017, 05:50 PM   #27
ulfberth
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 231
Default

16th century metal just has a different look than 19th or 20th C metal, in this picture you can see the difference on the surface of the helmet.
The black spots are not from damage but older metal has more impurities that over time translates in the more visible cracks , black spots and as here delamination.
None of these traces look homogeneous or uniform on 16th or 17th C metal, there is nothing repetitive about them.
In Attempt to mimic these signs of age they use various methods, for instance damages, or chemicals to create rust, the results exits in as many forms, but none have the exact look of the originals.
Once you master to recognize this difference you can start identifying the reproductions.
I suggest you read scams and fakes a lot is explained there
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showt...highlight=scams
IM afraid its not exaggerated, and as Michael pointed out the current scientific dating method is accurate by a 500 years margin.

kind regards

Ulfberth
Attached Images
 
ulfberth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th January 2017, 07:00 PM   #28
cornelistromp
Member
 
cornelistromp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 906
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
Jasper, I look forward to your notes as well, and would suggest that we mention the name of the auctioneer here privately only. I look forward to your assistance as well in noting what to look for in authentic examples of these helmets.



the workmanship is quite poor for an original Maximilian armet, especially the ventail-visor, these helmets were manufactured by top master blacksmiths.
furthermore the damage and dents seem to be artificially applied.

it is IMHO a helmet from the second half of the 19th century or early 20th century.

see attachment for comparison of a suit from the second half of the 19thC. ( style of 1520-1530)
Attached Images
    

Last edited by cornelistromp : 4th January 2017 at 07:45 PM.
cornelistromp is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 06:46 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.