Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > European Armoury
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 21st March 2015, 02:35 PM   #1
batjka
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 29
Default Iberian longsword evidence?

There seems to be a lot of discussion concerning provenance of longsword in Iberian peninsula in 13th-15th centuries. Sources point to a "double-handed" sword tradition that existed before Destreza. Allegedly, some manuals were published in the early 15th Century that describe Spanish longsword system. But all of them have been lost. The only remaining sources come from 16th century, as one on montante by Figuieiredo.

But if the longsword was actually in wide use on the Iberian peninsula, there must be archeological and artistic evidence of such. Are there preserved examples of Spanish and Portuguese longsword in museums or private collections? Any art showing these weapons in Spain or Portugal?

I hope such esteemed and knowledgeable gentlemen as yourselves can help resolve this puzzle.

Thank you in advance.
batjka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st March 2015, 04:10 PM   #2
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 6,840
Default

Two handed swords (Montantes) are often mentioned in chronicles of the Portuguese discoveries period, for one.
They were used by nobles, those educated to train with such weapons.
Not many around presently, though ... or they are well kept in private collections.
A couple examples can be seen in Lisbon Military Museum; including those having apparently belonged to notable fiugures; Henry the Navigator and Vasco da Gama

.
Attached Images
     
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st March 2015, 04:40 PM   #3
batjka
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 29
Default

Thank you very much, Fernando. These swords are beautiful!

My understanding is that a montante lays somewhere in between a longsword and a great sword in length and weight. A longsword would be around 120-130cm in length and 1200-1800gm in weight. A great sword is 3-3.5kg and up to 170cm in length. A montante is somewhere in the middle? What are the measurements of the known montantes, such as the ones shown above?
batjka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st March 2015, 05:06 PM   #4
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 6,840
Default

One is 157 cms and another one 175 cms.
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st March 2015, 07:19 PM   #5
batjka
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 29
Default

Made a mistake, Figuieiredo is a 17th Century source.

Are there any depictions of montantes in Spanish art of the period? I would love to be able to see them. In German and other European paintings, a longsword as well as the bigger Greatsword are well I represented. I'm looking for Iberian sources.

Fernando, thank you again for your knowledge and help.
batjka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd March 2015, 01:13 PM   #6
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 6,840
Default

Browse the web with term Mandoble (double hand). You will find many offers for replicas, like that of Carlos V, which means there were also originals. With some insistence and a bit of luck you will find images of the real thing.
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd March 2015, 03:55 PM   #7
batjka
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 29
Default

Thank you for your suggestion, Fernando. I was able to locate a couple of more Iberian two-handed swords here:

http://www.esgrimaantigua.com/node/68

It shows several swords made in the early and late 16th Century. These swords are located in the Army Museum of Madrid, according to the captions.
batjka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd March 2015, 04:12 PM   #8
batjka
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 29
Default

I also found a sword allegedly belonging to Fernando el Catolico. This is a typical longsword of 15th Century Europe. So there's some tangible proof of a longsword use in Spain at that time:

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/4787.../ill_010_lg.jpg
batjka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd March 2015, 07:09 PM   #9
fernando
Lead Moderator European Armoury
 
fernando's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 6,840
Default

Are you happy now ?
fernando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th March 2015, 08:40 AM   #10
ulfberth
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 231
Default

This one is in La Real Almeria in Madrid Spain, it is in the same style and probably of Spanish origin

Kind regards

Ulfberth
Attached Images
   
ulfberth is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 11:50 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.