A Moro Kriss...or Not???

CharlesS · 20th February 2005, 04:59 PM

Here is a recently acquired kriss that at first glance says "Moro", but there are just enough unique features to make me wonder if it is, indeed, Moro. The blade is lighter than most Moro pieces, though perfectly balanced for a vicious blow. It is of a laminated pattern, and features connecting circular talismans. The scabbard is especially unique with its intricate carving and bone and horn chape.

Any input or comments are most appreciated.

nechesh · 20th February 2005, 05:33 PM

I'm sure others with more knowledge of the Moro will pipe in, but to my eye this would appear to be all Moro. Perhaps that long, deep fuller can be held partly responsible for the lighter weight. Nice sword.

Rick · 20th February 2005, 05:39 PM

Ahem , yes , I'll take 3 please .

Surely looks Moro to me .

Radu Transylvanicus · 20th February 2005, 06:12 PM

At firstglance I would say its either made by/for the Audi or the Olympic Comitee , it would be a nice, representative piece if the Olympic Bangsamoro bobsled and fencing team alternates... ok, its Moro

Ian · 20th February 2005, 06:50 PM

Chuck:

Albert Van Zonneveld uses the term sundang to desribe the large double-edged kris that we associate with the Moros. He lists similar sundang as coming from Kalimantan and Sulawesi, as well as the Philippines and Sulu Archipelago. Figure 550 of v. Zooneveld's Tradtional Weapons of the Indonesian Archipelago shows a Kalimantan sundang ("kris") that resembles your example: a single asang asang, a large central fuller, and a hilt having a small kakatua pommel. It actually looks very similar to the one you show, but v. Zonneveld's picture is too small to see any finely engraved details. [I wonder if it would be possible to have his pictures reproduced on the web at greater resolution than in the book, or maybe on a CD that we could buy from him? Are you out there, Albert? The only criticism I have of your book is the minute pictures for many, many pieces.]

The scabbard strikes me as possibly not very old, a replacement perhaps, while the okir designs around the throat are evocative of Moro decorations.

Probably a Moro variant, but we seem not to have identified kris from other sources very well, so it is hard to exclude Kalimantan, Sulawesi, etc.

CharlesS · 20th February 2005, 08:35 PM

Thanks Ian....Kalimantan is exactly what I was wondering, also based on Zonneveld's, but wanted to see if anytone else thought in that direction.

As for the scabbard, its quite old, and I would be very surprised if it were NOT original to the sword.

Naga Basuki · 20th February 2005, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radu Transylvanicus

At firstglance I would say its either made by/for the Audi or the Olympic Comitee , it would be a nice, representative piece if the Olympic Bangsamoro bobsled and fencing team alternates... ok, its Moro

LMRAO!

Ian · 20th February 2005, 11:43 PM

Chuck:

Now that you mention it, the scabbard does seem to have some age, and I like the use of different materials on its toe -- not usual Moro work IMHO. Any chance you might bring this one to Timonium next month?

Conogre · 21st February 2005, 12:18 AM

Charles, if you attend, and if they talk you into taking it with you, just make sure that you're aware that you may need to use it just to keep possesion of it! (he says as he marks an "X" next to another location to be visited on his midnight collecting expedition of the USA)
Unless I'm mistaken or more information has been added during my absence, wasn't the pervailing opinion that there were enclaves in these other locations as well so that they were still, technically, Moro?
At any rate, congratulations of a superb aquisition.
Mike

Federico · 21st February 2005, 02:18 AM

One thing that has popped up in other threads concerning Zonneveld is that he does not attribute a people with the place. In a larger sense Kalimantan can be used to describe Borneo. As has been noted in other threads Sulu had possession of N Borneo up til about the end of the 19th century. So does Kalimantan then exclude Sulu colonies in N Borneo. It has also been noted in Warren's trilogy of books that there were Iranun colonies in Sulawesi. Are these items then possibly from Iranun colonies in Sulawesi? Given the age of the items (if we assume they are 19th century pieces according to prevalant aging theories), then their birth date, so to speak, are well within the ages of Sulu colonial rule in N Borneo aka Kalimantan, and Iranun colonies in Sulawesi. Anyways, suffice it to say my vote is Sulu Moro.

Ian · 21st February 2005, 11:46 PM

Federico:

Kalimantan, strictly speaking, refers to the Indonesian (previously Dutch) portion of the island formerly called Borneo. That would exclude Malaysian (previously British) "Northern Borneo," now referred to as Sarawak and Sabah, and the independent state of Brunei.

When Mr. van Zonneveld speaks of Kalimantan, I think he refers to the Indonesian portion of Borneo because Indonesian weapons are the focus of his book. Perhaps he could comment again here, as he has in the past, to settle any confusion.

Ian.

CharlesS · 22nd February 2005, 01:18 AM

I agree Ian. I think Zonneveld makes it clear that such swords may belong to to Sulu and other Philippine regions, but leaves open the possibility of Indonesian use as well, most especially in Borneo. Of course that leaves open the aforementioned queston...were the influences 'from' or 'to' Borneo??It's just shame that there are no absolutes that identify the location of origin.

Thanks for all the input everyone!!

Federico · 22nd February 2005, 03:02 AM

Tausug settlements can be found much further south than modern Malay controlled North Borneo. On pg. 103 of James Francis Warren's book Sulu zone, there is map of Tausug settlements, with one as far south Tanjungredeb in the map included in Zonneveld's book. As far Zonneveld's note in his book on sundang pg. 133 he lists locations and not people/sultanates (eg. Kalimantan, Sulawesi, Sulu Archipelago, Philippines) I would go as far as to say he is leaving it open rather than assigning a particular type (eg. this is a Kalimantan kris or Sulu kris,etc...). Considering his alternate names for the Sundang are sondang and sulu keris, and that he has question marks by two of the Kalimantan sundangs, it would seem things are not so cut and dry as to say he is automatically excluding Tausug/Sulu colonial origins when he speaks of these regions. It would be nice if he could clarify. However, if he is excluding such origins, it brings us to the question of which other groups would be making these items in these areas. The Bugis inhabit the regions South of Sulu colonies in Borneo. Then we get the Dayaks groups. Etc... I would argue that the origin of these kris as being from either group as highly unlikely given their own weapons cultures.

20th February 2005, 04:59 PM	#1
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,855	A Moro Kriss...or Not??? Here is a recently acquired kriss that at first glance says "Moro", but there are just enough unique features to make me wonder if it is, indeed, Moro. The blade is lighter than most Moro pieces, though perfectly balanced for a vicious blow. It is of a laminated pattern, and features connecting circular talismans. The scabbard is especially unique with its intricate carving and bone and horn chape. Any input or comments are most appreciated. Attached Images

20th February 2005, 05:33 PM	#2
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	I'm sure others with more knowledge of the Moro will pipe in, but to my eye this would appear to be all Moro. Perhaps that long, deep fuller can be held partly responsible for the lighter weight. Nice sword.

20th February 2005, 05:39 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,262	Ahem , yes , I'll take 3 please . Surely looks Moro to me .

20th February 2005, 06:12 PM	#4
Radu Transylvanicus Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: 2008-2010 Bali, 1998-2008 USA Posts: 271	At firstglance I would say its either made by/for the Audi or the Olympic Comitee , it would be a nice, representative piece if the Olympic Bangsamoro bobsled and fencing team alternates... ok, its Moro

20th February 2005, 06:50 PM	#5
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,029	Chuck: Albert Van Zonneveld uses the term sundang to desribe the large double-edged kris that we associate with the Moros. He lists similar sundang as coming from Kalimantan and Sulawesi, as well as the Philippines and Sulu Archipelago. Figure 550 of v. Zooneveld's Tradtional Weapons of the Indonesian Archipelago shows a Kalimantan sundang ("kris") that resembles your example: a single asang asang, a large central fuller, and a hilt having a small kakatua pommel. It actually looks very similar to the one you show, but v. Zonneveld's picture is too small to see any finely engraved details. [I wonder if it would be possible to have his pictures reproduced on the web at greater resolution than in the book, or maybe on a CD that we could buy from him? Are you out there, Albert? The only criticism I have of your book is the minute pictures for many, many pieces.] The scabbard strikes me as possibly not very old, a replacement perhaps, while the okir designs around the throat are evocative of Moro decorations. Probably a Moro variant, but we seem not to have identified kris from other sources very well, so it is hard to exclude Kalimantan, Sulawesi, etc.

20th February 2005, 08:35 PM	#6
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,855	Thanks Ian....Kalimantan is exactly what I was wondering, also based on Zonneveld's, but wanted to see if anytone else thought in that direction. As for the scabbard, its quite old, and I would be very surprised if it were NOT original to the sword.

20th February 2005, 11:43 PM	#8
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,029	Chuck: Now that you mention it, the scabbard does seem to have some age, and I like the use of different materials on its toe -- not usual Moro work IMHO. Any chance you might bring this one to Timonium next month?

21st February 2005, 12:18 AM	#9
Conogre Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Clearwater, Florida Posts: 371	Charles, if you attend, and if they talk you into taking it with you, just make sure that you're aware that you may need to use it just to keep possesion of it! (he says as he marks an "X" next to another location to be visited on his midnight collecting expedition of the USA) Unless I'm mistaken or more information has been added during my absence, wasn't the pervailing opinion that there were enclaves in these other locations as well so that they were still, technically, Moro? At any rate, congratulations of a superb aquisition. Mike

21st February 2005, 02:18 AM	#10
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	One thing that has popped up in other threads concerning Zonneveld is that he does not attribute a people with the place. In a larger sense Kalimantan can be used to describe Borneo. As has been noted in other threads Sulu had possession of N Borneo up til about the end of the 19th century. So does Kalimantan then exclude Sulu colonies in N Borneo. It has also been noted in Warren's trilogy of books that there were Iranun colonies in Sulawesi. Are these items then possibly from Iranun colonies in Sulawesi? Given the age of the items (if we assume they are 19th century pieces according to prevalant aging theories), then their birth date, so to speak, are well within the ages of Sulu colonial rule in N Borneo aka Kalimantan, and Iranun colonies in Sulawesi. Anyways, suffice it to say my vote is Sulu Moro.

21st February 2005, 11:46 PM	#11
Ian Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Aussie Bush Posts: 4,029	Federico: Kalimantan, strictly speaking, refers to the Indonesian (previously Dutch) portion of the island formerly called Borneo. That would exclude Malaysian (previously British) "Northern Borneo," now referred to as Sarawak and Sabah, and the independent state of Brunei. When Mr. van Zonneveld speaks of Kalimantan, I think he refers to the Indonesian portion of Borneo because Indonesian weapons are the focus of his book. Perhaps he could comment again here, as he has in the past, to settle any confusion. Ian.

22nd February 2005, 01:18 AM	#12
CharlesS Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greenville, NC Posts: 1,855	I agree Ian. I think Zonneveld makes it clear that such swords may belong to to Sulu and other Philippine regions, but leaves open the possibility of Indonesian use as well, most especially in Borneo. Of course that leaves open the aforementioned queston...were the influences 'from' or 'to' Borneo??It's just shame that there are no absolutes that identify the location of origin. Thanks for all the input everyone!!

22nd February 2005, 03:02 AM	#13
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Tausug settlements can be found much further south than modern Malay controlled North Borneo. On pg. 103 of James Francis Warren's book Sulu zone, there is map of Tausug settlements, with one as far south Tanjungredeb in the map included in Zonneveld's book. As far Zonneveld's note in his book on sundang pg. 133 he lists locations and not people/sultanates (eg. Kalimantan, Sulawesi, Sulu Archipelago, Philippines) I would go as far as to say he is leaving it open rather than assigning a particular type (eg. this is a Kalimantan kris or Sulu kris,etc...). Considering his alternate names for the Sundang are sondang and sulu keris, and that he has question marks by two of the Kalimantan sundangs, it would seem things are not so cut and dry as to say he is automatically excluding Tausug/Sulu colonial origins when he speaks of these regions. It would be nice if he could clarify. However, if he is excluding such origins, it brings us to the question of which other groups would be making these items in these areas. The Bugis inhabit the regions South of Sulu colonies in Borneo. Then we get the Dayaks groups. Etc... I would argue that the origin of these kris as being from either group as highly unlikely given their own weapons cultures.