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Old 29th September 2019, 09:59 PM   #1
Ed
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Default Stocking a Dopplehaken

I bought this some time ago, actually I got Matchlock to scurry up to Nuremberg to bid for me, and it seems to me that it might benefit from being stocked in an era appropriate style.

Nothing fancy, perhaps something along these lines
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You will see that there is a groove that was chizeled out for a pan, I;d probably fabricate something and age it so it would fit. Then I would need a matchlock, or serpentine along these lines.
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I'd appreciate any thoughts ideas etc.

This barrel is interesting in that it is dated 1507. My old pal was of the opinion that it was the second earliest dated barrel known.

.
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Old 1st October 2019, 10:21 PM   #2
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Default priming pan construction and attachment

Congrats on a great acquisition, Ed. The priming pan was no doubt mechanically fitted via a dovetail joint in that groove, the extensive corrosion over centuries has eaten away at the undercutting. If you merely want to display the gun and not shoot it, you can probably attach your replacement with epoxy. Do the aging on your replacement pan and cover assembly first, and you can mix various organic materials like sawdust, powdered charcoal, and even some ground up rust in your adhesive to make it look like the thing has been together for donkey years.

The barrel is interesting for not only the pan attachment but for the lack of an extended tang on the breechplug. Having restored a lot of Oriental guns (Indian, Tibetan, Chinese, and early Ottoman) I have seen exactly the same format and can confirm the dovetail attachment in all of those instances.

If you have Robert Held's The Age of Firearms (1957, and several subsequent eds. incl paperback and foreign languages), Fig. 39 on p.28 has an excellent 3/4 view of a lock and pan. You will note that the pan, being essentially square with the cover pivot screw on the outer rear corner, has a round bowl shaped depression with the touchhole drilled BELOW THE RIM on the side adjacent to the barrel, and connecting through to the bore. It is not the oblong or bidet-shaped depression with a trough-like path to the touchhole as is used on later lock systems.

The deep vertical notch on your barrel is to help retain a flash shield fashioned from a thin iron plate, running from the top flat of the barrel to a tubular sleeve that supports the long pan pivot screw. The drawing in Held's book says it all.

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Old 8th October 2019, 12:35 PM   #3
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Thanks for your reply.

Quote:
Congrats on a great acquisition, Ed. The priming pan was no doubt mechanically fitted via a dovetail joint in that groove, the extensive corrosion over centuries has eaten away at the undercutting. If you merely want to display the gun and not shoot it, you can probably attach your replacement with epoxy. Do the aging on your replacement pan and cover assembly first, and you can mix various organic materials like sawdust, powdered charcoal, and even some ground up rust in your adhesive to make it look like the thing has been together for donkey years.


If I proceed with the project it will be to imagine it as it was, sorta. So epoxy will be my friend. I have "aged" things here and there. One technique that I used as to bury the object (a chain mail coif if I recall correctly) with used kitty litter. Effective as you might imagine.

Quote:
The barrel is interesting for not only the pan attachment but for the lack of an extended tang on the breechplug. Having restored a lot of Oriental guns (Indian, Tibetan, Chinese, and early Ottoman) I have seen exactly the same format and can confirm the dovetail attachment in all of those instances.


So you think the dovetail was to position the barrel and prevent lateral movement? It seems like a pointless embellishment.

Quote:
If you have Robert Held's The Age of Firearms (1957, and several subsequent eds. incl paperback and foreign languages), Fig. 39 on p.28 has an excellent 3/4 view of a lock and pan. You will note that the pan, being essentially square with the cover pivot screw on the outer rear corner, has a round bowl shaped depression with the touchhole drilled BELOW THE RIM on the side adjacent to the barrel, and connecting through to the bore. It is not the oblong or bidet-shaped depression with a trough-like path to the touchhole as is used on later lock systems.


Note that my, or rather the gun's, touchhole is on a line with the groove and even with it. It suggests that the pan was sorta rectangular and extended forward of the grove. Yes?

Quote:
The deep vertical notch on your barrel is to help retain a flash shield fashioned from a thin iron plate, running from the top flat of the barrel to a tubular sleeve that supports the long pan pivot screw. The drawing in Held's book says it all.


Agree.
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Old 8th October 2019, 10:05 PM   #4
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Your're most welcome, Ed.

1. Thanks for suggesting kitty litter to age the exterior of an epoxy joint. New to me, will try it! I presume that you use new out-of -the-bag KL, not the stuff that your Felix has already romped through.

2. Yes, the forward portion of the pan extends further than the dovetail. It allows a pan of sufficient size, and reduces the labor needed to chisel and file the slot further. The walls of the dovetail slot were originally undercut to provide the necessary support (the pan being tapped in with a hammer for a tight friction fit), but so much metal has been lost due to centuries of corrosion that some sort of adhesive is now needed if you don't want to re-cut the slot. (to avoid an invasive, irreversible alteration to the metal of the barrel, re-cutting would not be advisable and is unnecessary for something you want to restore for display and not use).

3. Yes, the projecting pan does allow for increased stability of the barrel in its trough in the stock considering the fact that the breechplug has no projecting tang that takes a bolt or screw. The stock inletting of many early European guns is such that the right hand "wall" of the barrel channel projects a tad higher than the bottom of the pan, providing a notch that supplements the barrel pin(s) in the forestock in providing a firm and stable fit. (this is even more crucial with many Oriental matchlocks that utilize barrel bands, but that is another story). As I recall, the barrel hook on guns like yours is normally perforated for a barrel pin, so the attachment of the barrel is especially sturdy both fore and aft.
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Old 8th October 2019, 10:24 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip
Your're most welcome, Ed.

1. Thanks for suggesting kitty litter to age the exterior of an epoxy joint. New to me, will try it! I presume that you use new out-of -the-bag KL, not the stuff that your Felix has already romped through.



I will give thought to my next steps but I need to say ...

Well used kitty litter, my friend, well used. Art forgery is not for the faint of heart.

I also used Tannic Acid ...
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Old 8th October 2019, 10:26 PM   #6
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Default Lock

Hey, Ed

Reading your original post again, I noticed that you provided a pic of a Schnapplunte mechanism with button trigger. Do you have this, or are trying to acquire it for your project? Your endeavor sounds quite intriguing, please post images when the project is finished!

If I have misread your post, and you are still searching for a suitable lock, perhaps fellow forumite rickystl might able to locate a source for a correctly styled replica. I will send him an email. If you rather wait for an original, there are two big auctions in Europe, one in Munich and the other in Sarzana (Italy) which regularly feature interesting and hard-to-find locks. It might take awhile but I trust that you aren't in a burning hurry on this. Good luck!
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Old 8th October 2019, 10:35 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed

Well used kitty litter, my friend, well used. Art forgery is not for the faint of heart.

...


Thanks, Ed. Will attend our local SPCA's next cat adoption event...

I know about needing a strong nose for arms repair work. In India, the deep etch on damascus gun barrels was done by plugging the muzzle and touchhole of a polished and degreased tube, and burying it in a trough filled with cow dung. It was periodically taken out, scrubbed with wood ash, and re-interred over a period of a month or so.

My neighbors will not look kindly on this if I tried it in my back yard. I've gotten good results using a ferric chloride solution, fortunately. Just gotta monitor and neutralize carefully.
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Old 9th October 2019, 02:54 AM   #8
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I am in no rush at all.

Getting an original lock would be nice but I could age a new one. I am wondering what the pan should look like.
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Old 9th October 2019, 07:46 PM   #9
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Hi Ed

First of all, my congratulations. What a wonderful addition to a collection.

Your proposal would certainly make for an interesting project.

LOCK: I have searched my sources for replica locks. The earliest available snapping style matchlock lock available commercially is from about 1544. And it's English. So that won't due. The German/Bavarian locks are all late 16th to early 17th Century. And that won't work either.
There are custom lock makers that can make you an exact copy of the one in the photo above. And that lock looks correct to me for this extra early period.
Unlike a flintlock, this style of early matchlock would be fairly easy to build for a custom lock maker. So I would suspect the cost to be reasonable. If you have basic measurements along with the photo(s), it's even easier. Should you decide to go this route, let me know. I have 3/4 sources.

Meantime, check out this Thread from another Forum member. In that Thread there is a Link to another Forum. This member reproduced a copy of a snaplock from one in Michael's original collection. I'll send Richard an email to lend his comments on your Thread. I'm sure he would also like to see this barrel. Do you have any other photos ?

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=23238

Rick
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Old 9th October 2019, 08:37 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed
I am in no rush at all.

Getting an original lock would be nice but I could age a new one. I am wondering what the pan should look like.


The pan, being attached to the barrel, is totally separate from the lock plate. The illustration in the book I referenced earlier should say it all. Iíd scan my copy but am away from home at present so canít get to it just yet. The book has gone through several reprintings so is easily available on the antiquarian book websites. Lots of interesting info as well, Robert Held was a great researcher and writer.
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Old 9th October 2019, 10:55 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip
The pan, being attached to the barrel, is totally separate from the lock plate. The illustration in the book I referenced earlier should say it all. Iíd scan my copy but am away from home at present so canít get to it just yet. The book has gone through several reprintings so is easily available on the antiquarian book websites. Lots of interesting info as well, Robert Held was a great researcher and writer.



I have it, my mind is a sieve is all.

I had a email relationship with Held for a while. His politics were inconsistent with mine so the relationship ended. Sorta funny actually. I'll tell you over some brewskis.
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