European Archery/ Agincourt/crecy/etc

kronckew · 23rd July 2012, 05:52 PM

saw this video on a more general forum, got me wondering how fast an English/welsh longbowman could shoot his allotment of arrows. (i was also watching a modern version of 'Edward V' this weekend)

Quick bow and arrow

she is of course using an eastern european horsebow, with a somewhat unusual thumb release. i work it out to about 30+ rounds per minute (rpm).

and how in heck did the 3-6 rpm 50 yd effective musket ever replace this.

edited:
(that last sentence of mine reminded me of the american civil war general at the end of the massed smoothbore musket era who said when cautioned to keep his head down, confidently said "don't worry, at this range they couldn't hit the broad side of a ...'' as a sniper put a rifle round between his eyes at 600 yds.)

Shimmerxxx · 23rd July 2012, 06:00 PM

I've seen a couple of demonstrations by English archers speed shooting. It was slower than that, but their bows had a lot more draw weight than the eastern european horsebow she's using, and the target was a lot further away!

G. McCormack · 23rd July 2012, 06:36 PM

one thing to consider is she appears to be using extremely light arrows and I can't imagine the draw of that bow is more than 35 pounds at that length of pull. I'd be tempted to equate it to modern, stationary, target .22 shooting versus dynamic combat rifle shooting.

Still very cool vid ;-)

Timo Nieminen · 23rd July 2012, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

and how in heck did the 3-6 rpm 50 yd effective musket ever replace this.

Between 2 to 3 mm of iron or unhardened steel armour stops arrows; thinner will suffice if hardened steel. Muskets will punch through that.

Easier to train musketeers. Musketeers can fight when sick and ill-fed, and still shoot musket balls at the same power.

The Russians converted to the musket because muskets were cheaper than bows (they used the Asian composite bow).

The musket's real competitor was the crossbow. In some places (China, Japan, Korea, India) the bow stayed in use alongside the musket.

ashoka · 24th July 2012, 12:18 AM

interesting book Agincourt Juliet Barker. Lots of archery stats leading up to the French Campaign. All able bodied men between 16 and 60 to train with the bow every Sunday or feast day. Those who couldn't fire more than 10 aimed arrows per min not fit for military service, experienced archers could fire up to 25 per min. Average draw weight of English long bow 150-160 lbs and could fire up to 240 yds, up to 150 yards Bodkin heads could go through thick armour fairly easily. Another interesting fact, english yew was way too poor quality to make the better bows, the yew used was imported from Spain, and the Mediterranean. Each archer at Agincourt was issued with between 60 and 72 arrows which would have been loosed within about 7-4 minutes. They had a lot of arrows stockpiled for wars of this sort.. One London fletcher was paid £37 10s (approx £15,500 at todays money) to make 12,000 arrows .. all interesting stuff..

kahnjar1 · 24th July 2012, 12:32 AM

A bit of trivia, and completely ON track here, as when (and if) the French ever captured an English bowman, they cut off his two fingers which drew the bow string. The two fingered sign used today originated from this, as those who still had their fingers intact held them up to show the enemy.............so nothing is new in these modern times.

ashoka · 24th July 2012, 12:38 AM

An even more trivial piece of trivia, the expression to 'keep something under ones hat...' The Genoese mercenary crossbowmen used by the French at Crecy could not fire anything as their bowstrings were shrunk and warped by the torrential rain. English archers had on the other hand developed the crafty habit of keeping their bowstrings tucked away neatly under their hats and helmets thus keeping them dry and servicable..

VANDOO · 24th July 2012, 01:32 AM

A INTERESTING READ IS "THE ARCHERS TALE" BY BERNARD CORNWELL. IT IS HISTORICAL FICTION BUT HAS A LOT OF REAL RESEARCHED INFORMATION AND IS A GOOD STORY IF YOU LIKE TO READ.
THE BOW IS A SERIOUS WEAPON AS WELL AS A VERY GOOD HUNTING WEAPON. SOCIETYS WHO USED THEM A LOT FOR HUNTING USUALLY HAD COMPETICIAN AMONG THE TRIBE SO OFTEN GOT VERY GOOD WITH THEM.
THE PERSIAN EMPIRE HAD ARCHERS FROM SOME ETHINIC GROUP WHO MADE THEM VERY SUCESSFUL. THE ENGLISH LONGBOW WAS ANOTHER EXAMPLE . THE CHINESE USED THEM IN MASS AS THE PERSIANS DID.
BUT ARCHERY FROM HORSEBACK IT WAS EITHER THE MONGOLS OR THE AMERICAN INDIANS WHO WERE THE MASTERS. THE JAPANESE ALSO DO A GOOD JOB FROM HORSEBACK AS WELL.

David · 25th July 2012, 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

A bit of trivia, and completely ON track here, as when (and if) the French ever captured an English bowman, they cut off his two fingers which drew the bow string. The two fingered sign used today originated from this, as those who still had their fingers intact held them up to show the enemy.............so nothing is new in these modern times.

For what it is worth this legend has been discounted by Snopes. Much of what they say coincides with the video that Chris has posted. Can anyone provide any actual evidence to this tale?
http://www.snopes.com/language/apocryph/pluckyew.asp

23rd July 2012, 05:52 PM	#1
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,150	European Archery/ Agincourt/crecy/etc saw this video on a more general forum, got me wondering how fast an English/welsh longbowman could shoot his allotment of arrows. (i was also watching a modern version of 'Edward V' this weekend) Quick bow and arrow she is of course using an eastern european horsebow, with a somewhat unusual thumb release. i work it out to about 30+ rounds per minute (rpm). and how in heck did the 3-6 rpm 50 yd effective musket ever replace this. edited: (that last sentence of mine reminded me of the american civil war general at the end of the massed smoothbore musket era who said when cautioned to keep his head down, confidently said "don't worry, at this range they couldn't hit the broad side of a ...'' as a sniper put a rifle round between his eyes at 600 yds.) Last edited by kronckew; 23rd July 2012 at 06:23 PM.

24th July 2012, 12:32 AM	#6
kahnjar1 Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND Posts: 2,729	Ancient origins of a modern day rude sign A bit of trivia, and completely ON track here, as when (and if) the French ever captured an English bowman, they cut off his two fingers which drew the bow string. The two fingered sign used today originated from this, as those who still had their fingers intact held them up to show the enemy.............so nothing is new in these modern times.

23rd July 2012, 06:00 PM	#2
Shimmerxxx Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Wickford, UK Posts: 54	I've seen a couple of demonstrations by English archers speed shooting. It was slower than that, but their bows had a lot more draw weight than the eastern european horsebow she's using, and the target was a lot further away!

23rd July 2012, 06:36 PM	#3
G. McCormack Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Tallahassee, FL Posts: 131	one thing to consider is she appears to be using extremely light arrows and I can't imagine the draw of that bow is more than 35 pounds at that length of pull. I'd be tempted to equate it to modern, stationary, target .22 shooting versus dynamic combat rifle shooting. Still very cool vid ;-)

24th July 2012, 12:18 AM	#5
ashoka Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 61	interesting book Agincourt Juliet Barker. Lots of archery stats leading up to the French Campaign. All able bodied men between 16 and 60 to train with the bow every Sunday or feast day. Those who couldn't fire more than 10 aimed arrows per min not fit for military service, experienced archers could fire up to 25 per min. Average draw weight of English long bow 150-160 lbs and could fire up to 240 yds, up to 150 yards Bodkin heads could go through thick armour fairly easily. Another interesting fact, english yew was way too poor quality to make the better bows, the yew used was imported from Spain, and the Mediterranean. Each archer at Agincourt was issued with between 60 and 72 arrows which would have been loosed within about 7-4 minutes. They had a lot of arrows stockpiled for wars of this sort.. One London fletcher was paid £37 10s (approx £15,500 at todays money) to make 12,000 arrows .. all interesting stuff..

24th July 2012, 12:38 AM	#7
ashoka Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 61	An even more trivial piece of trivia, the expression to 'keep something under ones hat...' The Genoese mercenary crossbowmen used by the French at Crecy could not fire anything as their bowstrings were shrunk and warped by the torrential rain. English archers had on the other hand developed the crafty habit of keeping their bowstrings tucked away neatly under their hats and helmets thus keeping them dry and servicable..

24th July 2012, 01:32 AM	#8
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	A INTERESTING READ IS "THE ARCHERS TALE" BY BERNARD CORNWELL. IT IS HISTORICAL FICTION BUT HAS A LOT OF REAL RESEARCHED INFORMATION AND IS A GOOD STORY IF YOU LIKE TO READ. THE BOW IS A SERIOUS WEAPON AS WELL AS A VERY GOOD HUNTING WEAPON. SOCIETYS WHO USED THEM A LOT FOR HUNTING USUALLY HAD COMPETICIAN AMONG THE TRIBE SO OFTEN GOT VERY GOOD WITH THEM. THE PERSIAN EMPIRE HAD ARCHERS FROM SOME ETHINIC GROUP WHO MADE THEM VERY SUCESSFUL. THE ENGLISH LONGBOW WAS ANOTHER EXAMPLE . THE CHINESE USED THEM IN MASS AS THE PERSIANS DID. BUT ARCHERY FROM HORSEBACK IT WAS EITHER THE MONGOLS OR THE AMERICAN INDIANS WHO WERE THE MASTERS. THE JAPANESE ALSO DO A GOOD JOB FROM HORSEBACK AS WELL.