Swedish Cannon ??

katana · 10th October 2010, 11:55 PM

Mythbusters , a programme on TV re-created a swedish cannon consisting of of a bronze /copper thin inner bore surrounded with leather wrapping to strengthen it. Did these exist ?

The muzzle velocity was greater than a 'standard' cannon ....but the breach was blown out as the ball exited the muzzle.

Comments from our experts (yes you mickail

) would be appreciated, thank you
Regards David

Jim McDougall · 11th October 2010, 04:03 AM

Hi David,
I happened to have some notes on hand from research a while back on leather cannons.
A reference titled "The Army of Gustavis Adolphus" Vol 2 (p.17) Richard Brzezinski, 1993 notes, "...the leather cannon was superceded in 1629 by a weapon that did not have the same tendancy to overheat and burst". The new version was small and bronze apparantly.
It seems that the first leather cannon was from Zurich c.1622 and an Austrian baron took them to Sweden c.1625.
In Polish Prussia 1627 there were 14 of these leather guns, last recorded use 1629.
Gustavus Adolphus had sought a lighter weapon with mobility to serve between the musket and stationary cannon. These were thin copper tubes strengthened by heavy ropes and finally clad in leather, alternately in leather straps then rope.
Unfortunately the reinforced material would not let the heat dissipate, and the heat from detonation would deform the barrel.

While an unusual premise, it does seem there were some successful leather cannon used by the Venetians, also mortars. There were leather cannon captured in campaigns in Nepal c.1792 as well, and while I cannot find the remainder of those notes, it seems that leather cannon were used by Chinese forces in those times in some degree as lightweight mobile artillery.
A type of leather cannon was fired successfully in Edinburgh in 1788 (I believe this was from "The Gun and Its Development" WW Greener, 1907).

Interesting topic, and I wanted to add these notes while looking forward to the Maestro's comments

I'll bet Michael even has one of these!!!

All the best,
Jim

Matchlock · 11th October 2010, 02:13 PM

Hi David,

Thank you for considering me.

I think Jim put it so expertly that I cannot add anything substantial. We know that leather cannon existed so they must have stood the shooting. Personally, I can hardly imagine that but I am neither a physicist nor an engineer.

And Jim, thanks a lot for overestimating my collection!

Actually I do own a small cannon which is illustrated in a few pictures of my collection posted here some time ago. The 15th c. barrel is of bronze though. I am preparing to post it in a thread of its own.

Best,
Michael/Mikhail/Michl

Jim McDougall · 11th October 2010, 05:24 PM

Michael, I never underestimate anything about you my friend!

and thank you for the kind words on my patchy summary, which are simply from scribbled notes as this isway out of my field.

All I can recall is that there are two huge leather cannon in Tibet captured from Nepal in some museum, and there are questions on how functional they were. In the same campaigns it seems the Chinese forces were using some kind of leather cannon.
It goes to the mobility issues, and of course the British in the 19th century were striving for the same kind of mobility, but using conventional cannon that were dismantled and carried on pack mules. These were the 'mountain guns' and its hard to imagine these poor beasts trying to haul these things into the defiles of the Khyber or Hindu Kush!

All the best,
Jim

Matchlock · 11th October 2010, 05:40 PM

OK, folks,

I realize it's my turn to present the real stuff.

Please see Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leather_cannon

Attached please find pics and description of a so called 'leather' cannon, ca. 1620's, preserved in the Historisches Museum Berlin.

As David pointed out the barrel actually is of copper reinforced by iron, covered with strong (elk?) leather and bound with hemp, so it's not just all leather ...

I learned they have two pieces, their lengths being ca. 2 m and the caliber a one pounder and the other a one-and-a-half pounder.

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 11th October 2010, 05:44 PM

For further information, please refer to Anandalal N.'s thread

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10674

and to

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/printthread.php?t=680

We are a very good forum after all, and there's really a whole lot to learn here!!!

m

10th October 2010, 11:55 PM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Swedish Cannon ?? Mythbusters , a programme on TV re-created a swedish cannon consisting of of a bronze /copper thin inner bore surrounded with leather wrapping to strengthen it. Did these exist ? The muzzle velocity was greater than a 'standard' cannon ....but the breach was blown out as the ball exited the muzzle. Comments from our experts (yes you mickail ) would be appreciated, thank you Regards David

11th October 2010, 05:40 PM	#5
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Thirty Years War 'Leather' Cannon OK, folks, I realize it's my turn to present the real stuff. Please see Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leather_cannon Attached please find pics and description of a so called 'leather' cannon, ca. 1620's, preserved in the Historisches Museum Berlin. As David pointed out the barrel actually is of copper reinforced by iron, covered with strong (elk?) leather and bound with hemp, so it's not just all leather ... I learned they have two pieces, their lengths being ca. 2 m and the caliber a one pounder and the other a one-and-a-half pounder. Best, Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 11th October 2010 at 06:25 PM.

11th October 2010, 05:44 PM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	For further information, please refer to Anandalal N.'s thread http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=10674 and to http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/printthread.php?t=680 We are a very good forum after all, and there's really a whole lot to learn here!!! m Last edited by Matchlock; 11th October 2010 at 06:20 PM.

11th October 2010, 04:03 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,783	Hi David, I happened to have some notes on hand from research a while back on leather cannons. A reference titled "The Army of Gustavis Adolphus" Vol 2 (p.17) Richard Brzezinski, 1993 notes, "...the leather cannon was superceded in 1629 by a weapon that did not have the same tendancy to overheat and burst". The new version was small and bronze apparantly. It seems that the first leather cannon was from Zurich c.1622 and an Austrian baron took them to Sweden c.1625. In Polish Prussia 1627 there were 14 of these leather guns, last recorded use 1629. Gustavus Adolphus had sought a lighter weapon with mobility to serve between the musket and stationary cannon. These were thin copper tubes strengthened by heavy ropes and finally clad in leather, alternately in leather straps then rope. Unfortunately the reinforced material would not let the heat dissipate, and the heat from detonation would deform the barrel. While an unusual premise, it does seem there were some successful leather cannon used by the Venetians, also mortars. There were leather cannon captured in campaigns in Nepal c.1792 as well, and while I cannot find the remainder of those notes, it seems that leather cannon were used by Chinese forces in those times in some degree as lightweight mobile artillery. A type of leather cannon was fired successfully in Edinburgh in 1788 (I believe this was from "The Gun and Its Development" WW Greener, 1907). Interesting topic, and I wanted to add these notes while looking forward to the Maestro's comments I'll bet Michael even has one of these!!! All the best, Jim

11th October 2010, 02:13 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi David, Thank you for considering me. I think Jim put it so expertly that I cannot add anything substantial. We know that leather cannon existed so they must have stood the shooting. Personally, I can hardly imagine that but I am neither a physicist nor an engineer. And Jim, thanks a lot for overestimating my collection! Actually I do own a small cannon which is illustrated in a few pictures of my collection posted here some time ago. The 15th c. barrel is of bronze though. I am preparing to post it in a thread of its own. Best, Michael/Mikhail/Michl

11th October 2010, 05:24 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,783	Michael, I never underestimate anything about you my friend! and thank you for the kind words on my patchy summary, which are simply from scribbled notes as this isway out of my field. All I can recall is that there are two huge leather cannon in Tibet captured from Nepal in some museum, and there are questions on how functional they were. In the same campaigns it seems the Chinese forces were using some kind of leather cannon. It goes to the mobility issues, and of course the British in the 19th century were striving for the same kind of mobility, but using conventional cannon that were dismantled and carried on pack mules. These were the 'mountain guns' and its hard to imagine these poor beasts trying to haul these things into the defiles of the Khyber or Hindu Kush! All the best, Jim