Gorgeous Shamshir with... bad feeling

ariel · 5th April 2006, 11:09 PM

Here it is:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1
The blade is wootz, no doubt about it. The silverwork is intact. But... bidder IDs are hidden. And the scabbard/handle are too intact and the design is pretty simple. There is a small dent at the upper part of the scabbard, but it does not affect any repousse.
I asked the seller a question and he assured me that the entire ensemble was genuine.
And then I saw this one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1
Also a genuine wootz blade and also a very intact (too intact?) scabbard and handle. The joint between the blade and the handle is strange: the blade looks "burned" as if affected by soldering. And the silverwork is quite primiitive for that kind of blade.
I have bad feelings about both of these weapons.
I almost think that they may be coming from a single or, at the very least, related workshops somewhere in Syria or nearby. I am sure they can get all kind of old blades and then......
Any opinions? Please prove me wrong, I'll be the first one to cheer ( even though I was not the buyer).

M.carter · 5th April 2006, 11:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Here it is:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1
The blade is wootz, no doubt about it. The silverwork is intact. But... bidder IDs are hidden. And the scabbard/handle are too intact and the design is pretty simple. There is a small dent at the upper part of the scabbard, but it does not affect any repousse.
I asked the seller a question and he assured me that the entire ensemble was genuine.
And then I saw this one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1
Also a genuine wootz blade and also a very intact (too intact?) scabbard and handle. The joint between the blade and the handle is strange: the blade looks "burned" as if affected by soldering. And the silverwork is quite primiitive for that kind of blade.
I have bad feelings about both of these weapons.
I almost think that they may be coming from a single or, at the very least, related workshops somewhere in Syria or nearby. I am sure they can get all kind of old blades and then......
Any opinions? Please prove me wrong, I'll be the first one to cheer ( even though I was not the buyer).

The sword probably has a Persian blade.

They do seem to be "refurbished" a bit, but still, the newer Syrian work, isnt anything like the old. From what I examined, newly made Syrian scabbards are quite bulgy, big and heavy, unlike the old work, which this scabbard looks like. Perhaps all parts are original, only polished?

As for the wootz, its a strange steel, almost magical. If cared for, it looks new, even if it was over 300 years old, and used, which this sword has probably seen alot of.

Anyhow, that sword is beautiful, if I had the money, I wouldnt have hesitated to bid on it.

M.carter · 5th April 2006, 11:41 PM

Sorry Ariel, I did not notice the Jambiya. That dagger seems like it has been completely refittied with a new hilt, and sheath. If you look closely, the pommel on the hilt has some strange patina, which doesnt look normal on pure silver. The wood-to-silver fit on the hilt doesnt look "right", if you understand what I mean. As for the wootz, I think it looks normal, if you look at some Persian wootz, it looks blue. Some Indian wootz blades look black. I do not know of any scientific details on this. Someone else may help.

Valjhun · 6th April 2006, 07:28 AM

I agree what Carter says. The sword looks gorgeus, I've noticed it before but got too expensive for me... The jambija has a beautifull blade but newly made fittings, I thought it firs time I saw it.

Yannis · 6th April 2006, 08:16 PM

Ariel, I agree with your feelings. IMO the scabbards are both new and the blades are old. There are still excelent silversmiths in Middle East and if the money is good...
I believe that the knife was a try to push in international market stuff direct from Damascus. They remount a lot of blades there. Not always bad.

Battara · 6th April 2006, 09:47 PM

I did notice the jamhbiya and the silver work (if it is silver - in some pictures looks more like white brass) is not of the same quality of what is typical for the time frame of the blade. The reason you see the burn is that it has been soft soldered with lead and this is the only way it can be done if you place the fittings on and not dismantle the hilt. The fittings are much later.

ALEX · 9th April 2006, 07:30 PM

Ariel, your bad feelings are well justified. Both items have new silver work (on obviously old wootz blades). And by new I mean "YESTERDAY". This type of work is typical of what I have seen when I was in Damascus. My only comment is that I do NOT think the silver work on both shamshir and dagger scabbards deserves a high praise. I have seen much!!! way much better, and for the same $. 99.9% are made NOW in Damascus for Qatar and Saudi markets, so you'll not see it on E-Bay

M.carter · 11th April 2006, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Ariel, your bad feelings are well justified. Both items have new silver work (on obviously old wootz blades). And by new I mean "YESTERDAY". This type of work is typical of what I have seen when I was in Damascus. My only comment is that I do NOT think the silver work on both shamshir and dagger scabbards deserves a high praise. I have seen much!!! way much better, and for the same $. 99.9% are made NOW in Damascus for Qatar and Saudi markets, so you'll not see it on E-Bay

Well Ive seen much better than what you have seen

In Saudi Arabia. Much more traditional ways of production, and much, much more beautiful silver/gold work. Although, when it comes to koftgari, there is nowhere in the world today that performs that art, better than the artisans in Damascus, Souq Medhat Pasha...

ariel · 11th April 2006, 11:53 PM

No matter how we look at it, no matter how beatiful the techniques are, how traditional are the techniques, the final verdict is the same: fake.
Goes staright to the core of our recent discussion:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2194

M.carter · 12th April 2006, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

No matter how we look at it, no matter how beatiful the techniques are, how traditional are the techniques, the final verdict is the same: fake.
Goes staright to the core of our recent discussion:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2194

Can you please explain why you would term this sword a fake??

The blade is fully authentic, and probably the hilt. Only the scabbard is possibly new. Last week we saw a Kilij with a newly made indian scabbard, would you call that one a "fake"??

erlikhan · 12th April 2006, 08:31 PM

According to me, if the seller didnt warn that the scabbard is a new production and offered it with the description "original", it can be defined as a "fake",I agree.Doesnt need to be completely new. As a result,i am sure everybody here agree it would not sell so high if its scabbard was described as "new".
regards

ALEX · 13th April 2006, 10:29 AM

I second Ariel's "fake" verdict. Anything, which is newly made, and claimed as "original" is a definition of fake. This scabbard IS a current recreation. Moreover, the seller grossly misrepresented many of his sold items in the past (no offense anyone - I just state the facts). 'Nuff said...

Battara · 14th April 2006, 07:26 PM

Alex, I see your point. If something is old with new fittings and the seller mentions the fittings are newer, then it is not a fake. I'm not sure I go as far as calling it a "fake" but I do see your point and I do believe there is an ethical obligation for the seller to mention what is new and what is original (assuming the seller is aware).

5th April 2006, 11:09 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Gorgeous Shamshir with... bad feeling Here it is: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1 The blade is wootz, no doubt about it. The silverwork is intact. But... bidder IDs are hidden. And the scabbard/handle are too intact and the design is pretty simple. There is a small dent at the upper part of the scabbard, but it does not affect any repousse. I asked the seller a question and he assured me that the entire ensemble was genuine. And then I saw this one: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MEWA%3AIT&rd=1 Also a genuine wootz blade and also a very intact (too intact?) scabbard and handle. The joint between the blade and the handle is strange: the blade looks "burned" as if affected by soldering. And the silverwork is quite primiitive for that kind of blade. I have bad feelings about both of these weapons. I almost think that they may be coming from a single or, at the very least, related workshops somewhere in Syria or nearby. I am sure they can get all kind of old blades and then...... Any opinions? Please prove me wrong, I'll be the first one to cheer ( even though I was not the buyer).

5th April 2006, 11:41 PM	#3
M.carter Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 176	Sorry Ariel, I did not notice the Jambiya. That dagger seems like it has been completely refittied with a new hilt, and sheath. If you look closely, the pommel on the hilt has some strange patina, which doesnt look normal on pure silver. The wood-to-silver fit on the hilt doesnt look "right", if you understand what I mean. As for the wootz, I think it looks normal, if you look at some Persian wootz, it looks blue. Some Indian wootz blades look black. I do not know of any scientific details on this. Someone else may help.

6th April 2006, 07:28 AM	#4
Valjhun Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 692	I agree what Carter says. The sword looks gorgeus, I've noticed it before but got too expensive for me... The jambija has a beautifull blade but newly made fittings, I thought it firs time I saw it.

6th April 2006, 08:16 PM	#5
Yannis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Athens Greece Posts: 479	Ariel, I agree with your feelings. IMO the scabbards are both new and the blades are old. There are still excelent silversmiths in Middle East and if the money is good... I believe that the knife was a try to push in international market stuff direct from Damascus. They remount a lot of blades there. Not always bad.

6th April 2006, 09:47 PM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	I did notice the jamhbiya and the silver work (if it is silver - in some pictures looks more like white brass) is not of the same quality of what is typical for the time frame of the blade. The reason you see the burn is that it has been soft soldered with lead and this is the only way it can be done if you place the fittings on and not dismantle the hilt. The fittings are much later.

9th April 2006, 07:30 PM	#7
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 935	Ariel, your bad feelings are well justified. Both items have new silver work (on obviously old wootz blades). And by new I mean "YESTERDAY". This type of work is typical of what I have seen when I was in Damascus. My only comment is that I do NOT think the silver work on both shamshir and dagger scabbards deserves a high praise. I have seen much!!! way much better, and for the same $. 99.9% are made NOW in Damascus for Qatar and Saudi markets, so you'll not see it on E-Bay

11th April 2006, 11:53 PM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	No matter how we look at it, no matter how beatiful the techniques are, how traditional are the techniques, the final verdict is the same: fake. Goes staright to the core of our recent discussion: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2194

12th April 2006, 08:31 PM	#11
erlikhan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Istanbul Posts: 452	According to me, if the seller didnt warn that the scabbard is a new production and offered it with the description "original", it can be defined as a "fake",I agree.Doesnt need to be completely new. As a result,i am sure everybody here agree it would not sell so high if its scabbard was described as "new". regards

13th April 2006, 10:29 AM	#12
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 935	I second Ariel's "fake" verdict. Anything, which is newly made, and claimed as "original" is a definition of fake. This scabbard IS a current recreation. Moreover, the seller grossly misrepresented many of his sold items in the past (no offense anyone - I just state the facts). 'Nuff said...

14th April 2006, 07:26 PM	#13
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,139	Alex, I see your point. If something is old with new fittings and the seller mentions the fittings are newer, then it is not a fake. I'm not sure I go as far as calling it a "fake" but I do see your point and I do believe there is an ethical obligation for the seller to mention what is new and what is original (assuming the seller is aware).