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2nd October 2014, 03:16 PM | #1 |
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I would wager the one just posted is Chinese too. The tip and pommel form lead me to believe that. Once you see enough of these Chinese maces in there many forms the same patterns are repeated over and over with some variation. I will try to post a couple pictures after work as you asked.
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2nd October 2014, 04:13 PM | #2 | |
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Quote:
Here are two searches, one for "Chinese sai" and one for "Okinawan sai", see what both bring up. Chinese sai. https://www.google.com/search?q=chin...w=1842&bih=995 Okinawan sai. https://www.google.com/search?q=okin...w=1842&bih=995 |
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3rd October 2014, 11:55 PM | #3 | |
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Pre-Meiji Okinawan sai are built much like Chinese ones. How would one tell the difference? How can one tell whether it was made where it was found? (Mark Bishop's book, "Okinawan Weaponry" has some old Okinawan sai, and notes one that might have been imported from China.) These days, Okinawan sai are best known, but that's a result of the spread of karate and the inclusion of the sai as a karate weapon. Also attached is a picture of an iron ruler that's half-way to becoming a sai. (Pg. 55 in 中国古代冷兵器 (Ancient Chinese cold weapon) |
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4th October 2014, 12:42 AM | #4 | |
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I have watched, dealers, auctions, Ebay, Yahoo Japan for years and have only seen a couple of antique sai, surviving ones are rare. Of the ones I posted I know for sure that two came directly from Japan, and one came here from Indonesia, the other one was said to be from Japan but I have no proof. So if I see a sai that is of unknown origin and it is quite similar to the ones I know did not come from China I have to assume that it is not Chinese. Here are two Chinese sai, as you can see they have some similarity to the sai previously posted but they have more in common with the ones you posted. |
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4th October 2014, 12:56 AM | #5 |
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Here is a quick comparison, notice the similarities.
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4th October 2014, 02:35 AM | #6 |
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Some more (possibly) Chinese cha/sai:
Group of Highbinder weapons including a sai: http://amst312.umwblogs.org/2009/01/29/the-highbinders/ http://www.jikishinkobudo.com/articl...ection/8756081 Further to my earlier comments on trying to identify the origin of a particular sai, Okinawa was a major trade centre, connecting China, Korea, Japan, and the Philippines. A lot of trade went through Okinawa, with Chinese goods proceeding to Japan and the Philippines, and Japanese goods going to Chinese and SE Asia. Given domestic Okinawan iron production being what it was (I've seen it described as "absent"), a lot of "Okinawan" iron goods may well have been imported in the finished state, rather than being locally made. Last edited by Timo Nieminen; 4th October 2014 at 02:46 AM. |
4th October 2014, 05:36 AM | #7 |
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Here are a couple examples pictured below that I know were collected in northern China.
It was mentioned before that this style of antique mace is "quite rare". I do not necessarily agree with that statement. I have seen a couple dozen examples in the past several years that are very similar or of some variant that I strongly believe were Chinese due to either their association with other weapons in the same collection or where they were being sold from. I have also seen photo evidence of Qing era Chinese prison guards using these weapons. As far as nailing down a consistent form goes, that would be difficult. Its been my experience that variation is the rule rather than the exception when it come to Chinese "cold" weapons. I do appreciate estcrh's desire for proof though. I hope the two mace that I posted will be of interest. I also like the comments Timo made about the flow of iron goods between countries. |
4th October 2014, 03:12 PM | #8 | |||
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I have no knowledge of whether Okinawa produced its own iron products or if they imported tools and weapons from China etc, what I do know is that from the 1600s on Okinawa was under samurai control and I think that would preclude the open importation of weapons except possibly for the use of sanctioned police and security officials. Other individuals would have had to secretly import or forge their own from existing metal supplies. That is why Okinawa developed martial arts and wooden weapons from what I understand. This would also explain the scarcity of antique sai today. Your one link was to a newspaper / magazine article from the late 1800s early 1900s? depicting the Chinese criminal element brought to American with imported Chinese laborers. It shows the types of weapons confiscated from Chinese criminals including a sai with a wrapped hilt. Quote:
The other links is very interesting, its shows a sai from the Royal Armories identified as being Chinese while at the same time it questions were it actually originated and asks for help in identifying it, which is exactly what we are discussing here. Quote:
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