Use of Actual Vintage Arms as Props in Early Films

mahratt · 14th January 2023, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you so much!! This is wonderful, fantastic and brilliant! I had no idea of this Russian version of 'Sherlock Holmes', and the panoply of weapons on the wall there is outstanding. I see the extremely recurved Central Asian sword, the Russian military hanger with serrated back and of course the shashkas.

With the British situation in Afghanistan in the mid 1800s into the 20th c. it would not be the least bit surprising that there were connections to the Caucusus. As well related in Peter Hopkirks "The Great Game", these regions were a hotbed of intrigues that were far more complex and extended than just confined to Afghanistan.
I would say that is a fascinating interpretation, and I must check it out!

I think that the props used in the film were not the recurved Central Asian sword, but one of those items that we sometimes call "Kurdish or Transcaucasian yataghans". By the way, many thanks for the information about Zichy's 1897 edition. I studied this book with great interest.

Jim McDougall · 16th January 2023, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

I think that the props used in the film were not the recurved Central Asian sword, but one of those items that we sometimes call "Kurdish or Transcaucasian yataghans". By the way, many thanks for the information about Zichy's 1897 edition. I studied this book with great interest.

Yes, you're right, that oddly recurved example is one of those transcaucasian 'yataghans', as seen in that Zichy reference. I'm glad I could help with note of the reference. I only had the illustration plate sent to me by a friend many years ago as I was searching for it from the 1941 article by Jacobsen & Triikman.

Jim McDougall · 16th January 2023, 01:31 AM

In references online regarding "The Mark of Zorro" (1920) with Douglas Fairbanks, in the scenes it appears the swords being used are fencing sabers of the period, which it seems it was indicated these being lighter were more adaptable to faster movement. The leading men of these 'swashbuckling' films were often somewhat familiar with fencing, and there were several 'fight masters' who coached them in orchestrating the dynamic action scenes.

With 'stage combat' the movements are broader and more exaggerated, especially with the silent films, where action was the key dynamic of the film.

In "The First King of Hollywood:the Life of Douglas Fairbanks", Tracy Goessel. 2016, p.263, it is noted "...outtakes from Fairbanks' swashbuckling films document that every movement of the blade and leap upon or over furniture was carefully choreographed to prevent the actors from being cut to ribbons.
It is worth noting that the individual shots within the fencing sequences were sustained in length. Most Hollywood films keep sword fighting sequences to a maximum of three moves per shot: thrust, parry, counterparry. More than this and untrained actors can get hurt".

While visually, it seems the 1920 film was with fencing sabers, this dialogue suggests that actually viable swords might have been used in some degree with some of the extras.

In the scenes shown in these attachments of the 1920 'Zorro', it can be seen that Zorro has a pistol. As always, the only observations on weaponry as captioned speak ONLY of the pistol, and note observantly that it is a percussion lock, anachronistic to the period.
There are NO references to swords in these captions, as typically the case, but guns seem always of interest. Hmmm.

In an account by an actor in "the Iron Mask" (1929), he complained to the famed fight master Fred Cavens about the use of 'protective sheaths' on the tips of the rapiers (which he suggests are in 'Spanish' style).
Cavens responds, "...after each contest, there are many hands bleeding. What would it be if they were not protected by this sheath? I can almost teach the notions of fencing to the actors, but as for the extras, it is impossible and there is not enough time. It is because of this that each contest looks like a sharpening of knives-flic, flat, whirling their rapiers , big gestures to be skewered a hundred times!".

from "Douglas Fairbanks: and the American Century" (J.Tibbetts & J.Welsh, 2014, p.373).

On these early films, there was also a well known historian, artist, sculptor who was an advisor and consultant named Dwight Franklin, supervising set production and appointments etc. I learned of him through authors on these topics I had spoken with, and in checking with Los Angeles County Museum, there is a notable collection of vintage weapons of his that was donated some years ago.
While I have not yet seen these, I understand they are indeed authentic, and am compelled to think they may be sourced from the holdings in studio prop departments.

The last photo is of an on board 'melee' (?) in the 1940 production of "the Sea Hawk" ( "Hollywood History of the World". George MacDonald Fraser, 1988, p.75). I am unclear on how this could be imagined as a pitched battle.. it is patently ridiculous. The men are all holding swords up high,wide open to attack, and any sort of combat would be impossible.
In any case, the swords seem to be of epee, cuphilt and other, but to be of likely antique nature.
By this time, as through the 30s, there were huge stocks of props, costumes and fixtures in the empire of these movie studios in warehouses.

As yet however, I have not found any information on these studio warehouses, what became of the holdings, or any reference to authentic items, especially weapons, within them. I would appreciate any reading this who might have such information letting me know.

mahratt · 16th January 2023, 05:11 AM

Hello Jim.
I can tell you how the theatrical and film requisite situation looked like in Russia. In Russia in the 19th and early 20th centuries, many people had collections of antique arms (both Eastern and European). Interest in collecting antique arms was not the exclusive privilege of the Tzar family. Ordinary officers often possessed very worthy collections of arms and armor.
After the Revolution of 1917 and the Civil War in Russia, there were also a lot of weapons left, including sabers and daggers.
Russians who emigrated took part of the weapons with them, some were transferred by representatives of the Soviet government to museums, and some were sent as a requisite to film studios and theaters. And for a long time, authentic items were used on the stage and when shooting movies. Since the late 1980s, and especially in the 1990s (with the collapse of the USSR), enterprising collectors traveled around Russia, visiting theaters and buying authentic, sometimes unique arms and armor from them. There were no special storages in the theaters for arms that were used as props, and sometimes a fine Caucasian shashka could lie on a shelf next to a wooden sword, the "blade" of which was painted with silver paint. In film studios, the situation was more strict. Therefore, samples of ancient arms and armor are still preserved there.

Jim McDougall · 16th January 2023, 06:42 AM

Thank you Dima! This is fascinating insight, and it is amazing how these important weapons ended up in such unusual circumstances. One never knows what treasures are residing in places nobody would think to look, and often the uninitiated would see a sword as 'just another sword', not realizing.

While I have never really thought a great deal about prop arms in theater and film, I had not realized how many authentic weapons inadvertently ended up in this context. In a recent project where I have been in contact with certain authors and museums I have seen this phenomenon has been much more prevalent in the past than I imagined.
These days there are reproductions, and costume and prop firms who supply studios and theatrical groups, so the 'golden days' are gone, however many of those items from before thankfully have made it to proper care.

mahratt · 16th January 2023, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Thank you Dima! This is fascinating insight, and it is amazing how these important weapons ended up in such unusual circumstances. One never knows what treasures are residing in places nobody would think to look, and often the uninitiated would see a sword as 'just another sword', not realizing.

While I have never really thought a great deal about prop arms in theater and film, I had not realized how many authentic weapons inadvertently ended up in this context. In a recent project where I have been in contact with certain authors and museums I have seen this phenomenon has been much more prevalent in the past than I imagined.
These days there are reproductions, and costume and prop firms who supply studios and theatrical groups, so the 'golden days' are gone, however many of those items from before thankfully have made it to proper care.

From what I know for sure. On the set of the Soviet film "White Sun of the Desert" about the struggle of the Soviet authorities with the Basmachi (by the way, according to a long tradition, Russian cosmonauts always watch this film before flying into space), a lot of authentic arms (mostly Caucasian) were used and, oddly enough, an authentic Japanese army sword was used . This sword is now in my friend's possession. His father received this sword as a gift from the director of the film.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Sun_of_the_Desert

https://yandex.ru/video/preview/4480302271478583828

fernando · 16th January 2023, 11:05 AM

... real props ?

(Courtesy Heritage Auctions)

.

Jim McDougall · 16th January 2023, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mahratt

From what I know for sure. On the set of the Soviet film "White Sun of the Desert" about the struggle of the Soviet authorities with the Basmachi (by the way, according to a long tradition, Russian cosmonauts always watch this film before flying into space), a lot of authentic arms (mostly Caucasian) were used and, oddly enough, an authentic Japanese army sword was used . This sword is now in my friend's possession. His father received this sword as a gift from the director of the film.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Sun_of_the_Desert

https://yandex.ru/video/preview/4480302271478583828

This is great Dima! I have always been intrigued by those M1898 Mauser pistols (in the guys belt), a most curious form gun. I recall in lore that it was said these, which were made in good number in China, as well as Argentina, and were termed 'bandit' guns or to that effect.
The ejection of the shells had something to do with the odd side hold while firing, which thanks to director John Woo, has become popularly used in movies and in accord by modern 'gang bangers'.
Apparently the mauser was held in a side rather than upright aimed position, and in a semi circular 'sweeping' range of rapid fire.

While looking 'bad ass' (?) it seems less than effective in actual firing use, but looks 'threatening' on film, naturally followed by those who are inspired by and try to imitate anything seen in pop culture.

16th January 2023, 01:31 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	More references In references online regarding "The Mark of Zorro" (1920) with Douglas Fairbanks, in the scenes it appears the swords being used are fencing sabers of the period, which it seems it was indicated these being lighter were more adaptable to faster movement. The leading men of these 'swashbuckling' films were often somewhat familiar with fencing, and there were several 'fight masters' who coached them in orchestrating the dynamic action scenes. With 'stage combat' the movements are broader and more exaggerated, especially with the silent films, where action was the key dynamic of the film. In "The First King of Hollywood:the Life of Douglas Fairbanks", Tracy Goessel. 2016, p.263, it is noted "...outtakes from Fairbanks' swashbuckling films document that every movement of the blade and leap upon or over furniture was carefully choreographed to prevent the actors from being cut to ribbons. It is worth noting that the individual shots within the fencing sequences were sustained in length. Most Hollywood films keep sword fighting sequences to a maximum of three moves per shot: thrust, parry, counterparry. More than this and untrained actors can get hurt". While visually, it seems the 1920 film was with fencing sabers, this dialogue suggests that actually viable swords might have been used in some degree with some of the extras. In the scenes shown in these attachments of the 1920 'Zorro', it can be seen that Zorro has a pistol. As always, the only observations on weaponry as captioned speak ONLY of the pistol, and note observantly that it is a percussion lock, anachronistic to the period. There are NO references to swords in these captions, as typically the case, but guns seem always of interest. Hmmm. In an account by an actor in "the Iron Mask" (1929), he complained to the famed fight master Fred Cavens about the use of 'protective sheaths' on the tips of the rapiers (which he suggests are in 'Spanish' style). Cavens responds, "...after each contest, there are many hands bleeding. What would it be if they were not protected by this sheath? I can almost teach the notions of fencing to the actors, but as for the extras, it is impossible and there is not enough time. It is because of this that each contest looks like a sharpening of knives-flic, flat, whirling their rapiers , big gestures to be skewered a hundred times!". from "Douglas Fairbanks: and the American Century" (J.Tibbetts & J.Welsh, 2014, p.373). On these early films, there was also a well known historian, artist, sculptor who was an advisor and consultant named Dwight Franklin, supervising set production and appointments etc. I learned of him through authors on these topics I had spoken with, and in checking with Los Angeles County Museum, there is a notable collection of vintage weapons of his that was donated some years ago. While I have not yet seen these, I understand they are indeed authentic, and am compelled to think they may be sourced from the holdings in studio prop departments. The last photo is of an on board 'melee' (?) in the 1940 production of "the Sea Hawk" ( "Hollywood History of the World". George MacDonald Fraser, 1988, p.75). I am unclear on how this could be imagined as a pitched battle.. it is patently ridiculous. The men are all holding swords up high,wide open to attack, and any sort of combat would be impossible. In any case, the swords seem to be of epee, cuphilt and other, but to be of likely antique nature. By this time, as through the 30s, there were huge stocks of props, costumes and fixtures in the empire of these movie studios in warehouses. As yet however, I have not found any information on these studio warehouses, what became of the holdings, or any reference to authentic items, especially weapons, within them. I would appreciate any reading this who might have such information letting me know. Attached Images Last edited by Jim McDougall; 16th January 2023 at 04:41 AM.

16th January 2023, 11:05 AM	#7
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,647	Props ... ... real props ? (Courtesy Heritage Auctions) . Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 16th January 2023 at 12:51 PM.

16th January 2023, 05:11 AM	#4
mahratt Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Russia Posts: 1,042	Hello Jim. I can tell you how the theatrical and film requisite situation looked like in Russia. In Russia in the 19th and early 20th centuries, many people had collections of antique arms (both Eastern and European). Interest in collecting antique arms was not the exclusive privilege of the Tzar family. Ordinary officers often possessed very worthy collections of arms and armor. After the Revolution of 1917 and the Civil War in Russia, there were also a lot of weapons left, including sabers and daggers. Russians who emigrated took part of the weapons with them, some were transferred by representatives of the Soviet government to museums, and some were sent as a requisite to film studios and theaters. And for a long time, authentic items were used on the stage and when shooting movies. Since the late 1980s, and especially in the 1990s (with the collapse of the USSR), enterprising collectors traveled around Russia, visiting theaters and buying authentic, sometimes unique arms and armor from them. There were no special storages in the theaters for arms that were used as props, and sometimes a fine Caucasian shashka could lie on a shelf next to a wooden sword, the "blade" of which was painted with silver paint. In film studios, the situation was more strict. Therefore, samples of ancient arms and armor are still preserved there.

16th January 2023, 06:42 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,785	Thank you Dima! This is fascinating insight, and it is amazing how these important weapons ended up in such unusual circumstances. One never knows what treasures are residing in places nobody would think to look, and often the uninitiated would see a sword as 'just another sword', not realizing. While I have never really thought a great deal about prop arms in theater and film, I had not realized how many authentic weapons inadvertently ended up in this context. In a recent project where I have been in contact with certain authors and museums I have seen this phenomenon has been much more prevalent in the past than I imagined. These days there are reproductions, and costume and prop firms who supply studios and theatrical groups, so the 'golden days' are gone, however many of those items from before thankfully have made it to proper care.