Bendo - Page 2

paolo · 24th January 2007, 07:49 PM

Hi all,
Very interesting all You said. Bendo, Bendho, Bedong, different words, different shapes from Sunda to West Java. : confused: Now I really need pics about what you really mean.
Regards
Paolo

kronckew · 24th January 2007, 08:43 PM

hi. i have one of the dutch klewangs i bought at an arms show here in the UK, scabbard is oiled dark brown leather with a brass tip, steel reenforcement at the throat, blade is dark steel, very sharp, light pitting in some places, guard steel, black rust patina, grips wood scales, 3 brass cutlers rivets, large pommel screw at end. blade is marked PD over a LUNESCHLOSS over SOLINGEN just ahead of the guard and the opposite side has a very small figure i can not make out. blade is 4mm x 35 mm. at the guard with a distal taper down to about 2.5mm just before the false edge starts

ferrylaki · 25th January 2007, 05:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henk

Hi Ferrylaki,

MILSCO is the mark of the american klewangs "adopted" by the Dutch. MILSCO means Military Supply Company, a US supplier of the M1941 cutlass. (Thanks to Ian) Those klewangs where left behind by the US army after WWII.

HEMBRUG is 100% Dutch and made in Holland in the Hembrug factories.

VINCE I've never seen. Maybe someone can tell us more about this mark?

The unmarked one could be a dutch fabricate, but I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be an american product.

here comes some pics....

kronckew · 25th January 2007, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ferrylaki

here comes some pics....

that mark looks like the one i can just barely see on mine, something that looks like a crown with squiggles under it that look like a fancy 'W', which in your photo looks like a fancy crowned 'R'. is this an acceptance or proof mark of some sort

ferrylaki · 25th January 2007, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

that mark looks like the one i can just barely see on mine, something that looks like a crown with squiggles under it that look like a fancy 'W', which in your photo looks like a fancy crowned 'R'. is this an acceptance or proof mark of some sort

seem like its " R " under a crown.
solingen and hembrug both from netherland. and may have better iron quality than ' milsco' and ' vince' . the milsco klewang are dull but the hembrug seem to be more sharp...and much older. I just got it yesterday after my friens brough my 27 pieces of klewangs... there was only one 'hembrug' I found...others are milsco and one unmark klewang.

solingen ,hembrug, and unmark klewang has better tip shape than most milsco.
the edge has better curve and make it able to be come sharp. milsco klewang has line on its edge....and not sharp...

forgive my poor english...maybe pictures can speak more languages than words...
look at the edge under MILSCO mark, machine made sword that hard to be sharp...dull it is.

Emanuel · 25th January 2007, 08:40 PM

To me it looks like a fancy "B", the right leg of the letter tuks inwards not outwards. I really like these Ferrylaki, but what do you mean that the line on the dge of the Milsco blade is hard to sharpen? Even staright edges can be sharpened very well. Too bad you only have one marked Hembrug...what would the unmarked ones be? Would they also be Dutch?
All the best,
Emanuel

Henk · 25th January 2007, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

hi. i have one of the dutch klewangs i bought at an arms show here in the UK, scabbard is oiled dark brown leather with a brass tip, steel reenforcement at the throat, blade is dark steel, very sharp, light pitting in some places, guard steel, black rust patina, grips wood scales, 3 brass cutlers rivets, large pommel screw at end. blade is marked PD over a LUNESCHLOSS over SOLINGEN just ahead of the guard and the opposite side has a very small figure i can not make out. blade is 4mm x 35 mm. at the guard with a distal taper down to about 2.5mm just before the false edge starts

This is a German sabre. Solingen is German and not Dutch.
The sabre looks like a klewang used by the dutch army, but this guard divers from the klewang guard. As far as I know, the Dutch didn't used german weapons. So I doubt if you can call this a dutch klewang. But I do like it.

kronckew · 25th January 2007, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henk

This is a German sabre. Solingen is German and not Dutch.
The sabre looks like a klewang used by the dutch army, but this guard divers from the klewang guard. As far as I know, the Dutch didn't used german weapons. So I doubt if you can call this a dutch klewang. But I do like it.

interesting, i cannot see much difference between mine and the other one illustrated other than the blade marking. if you could point out the differences i would be appreciative. the scabbard, fittings, belt loop, scabbard throat and chape all look the same - even to the staples holding the brass chape to the scabbard and the two parallel lines down the leather part of the scabbard, also the blade shape and the fuller on the blade. blade length 24.5 in. (625mm) grip length ~ 4.75 in. (125mm) x 1.25 in. (30mm) wide x 1 in.(25.4mm) thick...

i am of course aware that solingen is in germany, they made blades for a number of other countries as well.

more pics

ferrylaki · 26th January 2007, 02:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Manolo

To me it looks like a fancy "B", the right leg of the letter tuks inwards not outwards. I really like these Ferrylaki, but what do you mean that the line on the dge of the Milsco blade is hard to sharpen? Even staright edges can be sharpened very well. Too bad you only have one marked Hembrug...what would the unmarked ones be? Would they also be Dutch?
All the best,
Emanuel

I have no idea about the unmark one.
I have check all the swords they have, I only found one hembrug without its original scarbard. so I took other blades' scarbard as a replacement. and every scrabard fits with any sword, like they were made exactly the same size and same curve... the hembrug blade doesnt have the line on its edge, but it has curve edge that make its sharper than milsco. the iron/steel seem different also...the tip of hembrug and milsco are different...the hand guard oh hembrug also has a little differrent from milsco. there is a small bent on its upper tip. the pics are coming soon.

Henk · 26th January 2007, 08:51 PM

Kronckew,

Yes, after your last pictures I see that the guard of your sabre is identical to the dutch klewang and the American MILSCO cutlass.

But I still doubt if you may call it a Dutch KNIL klewang because of the German Solingen mark. I don't think the Dutch army used German manufactured weapons, especially in that period.

kronckew · 27th January 2007, 06:45 AM

this has become most interesting, we seem to have almost exactly the same design being used by the USA, Holland, Japan and Germany all about the same time near the beginning of ww2. wonder who else was using them.

i've been holding back a tidbit of info to see what developed.

after i had bought the item, i'd had it for about 10 yrs. when i saw that cold steel had made what appeared to be a copy, i found what looked much like it listed as a US navy cutlass, then came across one of them with a cut down guard which had been apparently a captured dutch version modified & reissued by the japanese in se asia, then i saw the references to the dutch klewang origin & it appeared to be a direct match, so i've thought of it as dutch since.

However, when i had initially purchased it here in the UK, i was told that it was a german cutlass 'liberated' by a british MTB officer from a german e-boat (Schnellboot or S-Boot) they had captured during ww2. as i had a father-in-law who had been a MTB captain in the war & lost a leg in battle against an s-boot, it seemed fated to come home with me.

this had seemed less likely up till now after the later developements. however, seems like there was a bit of cross cultural drift of the design to both sides; the very last gasp of the edged sword-length weapon in actual combat issue and all sides used the same one?

edited:
further fodder: This Link seems to indicate some of the earlier pre-war ones were made in germany (solingen) for the original designer, General Van Heutsz, prior to them being made in hemburg. as they said there , it's an enigma wrapped in a conundrum.

A. G. Maisey · 27th January 2007, 07:51 AM

I have found this to be an almost unbelievably enthralling discussion--the way in which it has moved from Sundanese and Javanese tools and weaponry to European and now US military issue weapons demonstrates how the differing strands of weaponry are so inextricably interwoven.

Upon reflection, I think that this thread demonstrates just how very difficult it can be to define exactly what a sword is. Burton spent a chapter telling us that you can't really define a sword, but you'll recognise one when you see one.

However, we were talking about the Javanese bendho.

Here is a picture of a bendho lifted from an earlier posting by Marto Suwignyo. Somewhat more elegant than one would expect to see for sale in a Central Javanese market, nonetheless, the form---except of course for the Rojomolo tip--- is the same as for today's common or garden variety bendho.

ferrylaki · 29th January 2007, 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I have found this to be an almost unbelievably enthralling discussion--the way in which it has moved from Sundanese and Javanese tools and weaponry to European and now US military issue weapons demonstrates how the differing strands of weaponry are so inextricably interwoven.

Upon reflection, I think that this thread demonstrates just how very difficult it can be to define exactly what a sword is. Burton spent a chapter telling us that you can't really define a sword, but you'll recognise one when you see one.

However, we were talking about the Javanese bendho.

Here is a picture of a bendho lifted from an earlier posting by Marto Suwignyo. Somewhat more elegant than one would expect to see for sale in a Central Javanese market, nonetheless, the form---except of course for the Rojomolo tip--- is the same as for today's common or garden variety bendho.

HI....
very beautiful bendo I think...
where did you find it??

A. G. Maisey · 29th January 2007, 03:52 AM

As I said:- I lifted the picture from an earlier post by Marto Suwignyo

Here is the link .

Scroll down and you will see the picture and his post.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=841

24th January 2007, 08:43 PM	#32
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,150	hi. i have one of the dutch klewangs i bought at an arms show here in the UK, scabbard is oiled dark brown leather with a brass tip, steel reenforcement at the throat, blade is dark steel, very sharp, light pitting in some places, guard steel, black rust patina, grips wood scales, 3 brass cutlers rivets, large pommel screw at end. blade is marked PD over a LUNESCHLOSS over SOLINGEN just ahead of the guard and the opposite side has a very small figure i can not make out. blade is 4mm x 35 mm. at the guard with a distal taper down to about 2.5mm just before the false edge starts Last edited by kronckew; 24th January 2007 at 08:58 PM.

27th January 2007, 06:45 AM	#41
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,150	this has become most interesting, we seem to have almost exactly the same design being used by the USA, Holland, Japan and Germany all about the same time near the beginning of ww2. wonder who else was using them. i've been holding back a tidbit of info to see what developed. after i had bought the item, i'd had it for about 10 yrs. when i saw that cold steel had made what appeared to be a copy, i found what looked much like it listed as a US navy cutlass, then came across one of them with a cut down guard which had been apparently a captured dutch version modified & reissued by the japanese in se asia, then i saw the references to the dutch klewang origin & it appeared to be a direct match, so i've thought of it as dutch since. However, when i had initially purchased it here in the UK, i was told that it was a german cutlass 'liberated' by a british MTB officer from a german e-boat (Schnellboot or S-Boot) they had captured during ww2. as i had a father-in-law who had been a MTB captain in the war & lost a leg in battle against an s-boot, it seemed fated to come home with me. this had seemed less likely up till now after the later developements. however, seems like there was a bit of cross cultural drift of the design to both sides; the very last gasp of the edged sword-length weapon in actual combat issue and all sides used the same one? edited: further fodder: This Link seems to indicate some of the earlier pre-war ones were made in germany (solingen) for the original designer, General Van Heutsz, prior to them being made in hemburg. as they said there , it's an enigma wrapped in a conundrum. Last edited by kronckew; 27th January 2007 at 07:07 AM.

27th January 2007, 07:51 AM	#42
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	I have found this to be an almost unbelievably enthralling discussion--the way in which it has moved from Sundanese and Javanese tools and weaponry to European and now US military issue weapons demonstrates how the differing strands of weaponry are so inextricably interwoven. Upon reflection, I think that this thread demonstrates just how very difficult it can be to define exactly what a sword is. Burton spent a chapter telling us that you can't really define a sword, but you'll recognise one when you see one. However, we were talking about the Javanese bendho. Here is a picture of a bendho lifted from an earlier posting by Marto Suwignyo. Somewhat more elegant than one would expect to see for sale in a Central Javanese market, nonetheless, the form---except of course for the Rojomolo tip--- is the same as for today's common or garden variety bendho. Attached Images Last edited by A. G. Maisey; 27th January 2007 at 08:58 AM.

24th January 2007, 07:49 PM	#31
paolo Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 173	Hi all, Very interesting all You said. Bendo, Bendho, Bedong, different words, different shapes from Sunda to West Java. : confused: Now I really need pics about what you really mean. Regards Paolo

25th January 2007, 08:40 PM	#36
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	To me it looks like a fancy "B", the right leg of the letter tuks inwards not outwards. I really like these Ferrylaki, but what do you mean that the line on the dge of the Milsco blade is hard to sharpen? Even staright edges can be sharpened very well. Too bad you only have one marked Hembrug...what would the unmarked ones be? Would they also be Dutch? All the best, Emanuel

26th January 2007, 08:51 PM	#40
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Kronckew, Yes, after your last pictures I see that the guard of your sabre is identical to the dutch klewang and the American MILSCO cutlass. But I still doubt if you may call it a Dutch KNIL klewang because of the German Solingen mark. I don't think the Dutch army used German manufactured weapons, especially in that period.

29th January 2007, 03:52 AM	#44
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,697	As I said:- I lifted the picture from an earlier post by Marto Suwignyo Here is the link . Scroll down and you will see the picture and his post. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=841