Fencing with Sabers

ariel · 25th November 2006, 08:52 PM

To be sure: I use the word "fencing" as an equivalent of "swordplay", " sword fight" etc. It always has a meaning of "practical, military use". Choose your own favourite meaning, but be sure: this has nothing to do with the modern, official, Olympic sport.
Now we can start.
I just started re-reading the book by Wojciech Zablocki " Ciecia Prawdziwa Szabla", Warszawa 1989. ISBN 83-217-2601-1. Loose translation: Realistic use of a saber.
Mr. Z. is a famous Polish Olympic fencer who decided to evaluate the practical worth of different sabers as fencing (remember the first paragraph!) weapons.
To this end, he combined his training with the following research methods:
1.Studies of historical sabers in museum and private collections. This is quire remarkable: he personally used a total of 307 sabers: 15 Persian shamshirs, 23 Russian, 12 Arabian/Moorish, 6 Turkish 15th century, 27 Turkish 16th century, 23 Turkish 18-19th century, 2 Shashkas etc, etc, etc. These sabers were tested by him both during horseriding as well as on foot to get an idea of their suitability as cavalry weapons as well as infantry weapons.
2. Understanding of the mechanics of different sabers: eg, Kilij with Yelman and pistol grip; Nimcha with its characteristic handle; Shashka with no guard; Shamshir with highly-curved blade and a pommel bent 90 deg; Polish saber with thumb-ring etc, etc.
3. Analysis of old fencing manuals of 16-17th cen. and military drill handbooks of 18-19th century
4. Analysis of primary references: diaries of Polish noblemen describing saber encounters .
Altogether, this is, in my mind, the best study of the true working parameters of different sabers.
Conclusions:
Most of the described saber bouts were fought on foot.
Most of the damage was done to the head and Rt. arm
Multiple parries and ripostes were the rule
A saber bout between two horse riders produced many injuries but few fatalities.
Examples:

Late Kilij: very versatile, can be used for swinging cuts (on horseback) and circular cuts (on foot)

Moroccan: good for swinging cuts from the elbow.

Karabelas ( Polish type II, Russian, Turkish, Persian, Moldovian, Armenian): so-so, good mainly for circular cuts on foot. Mainly for decoration.

Shashka: ... very good for swinging cuts from horseback, good for circular cuts.The lack of hand protection makes normal parries impossible; only swing parries and side-withdrawals ( djigitovka) on horseback were used

Polish saber Type I ("hussar saber"): thumb ring enables quick direct cuts when duelling on foot. The center of percussion permits strong swinging cuts to be delivered from horseback. ...one of the best and most versatile sabers of the world.

His severest criticism is reserved for...
Persian shamshirs: "... are not the best for it is difficult to stop and to change the direction of a stroke. It seems that the high opinion enjoyed by Persian sabers was due rather to poetry and miniatures, than to the reality"

Any opinions?

LabanTayo · 25th November 2006, 08:55 PM

Ariel,
Is this book written in Polish?
Sounds like a really interesting book and I love the idea behind it!!!

I am in no way qualified to give my opinions of what is written, since the art and swords behind the research is not my forte. I still love the thought of it!!!

ariel · 25th November 2006, 09:03 PM

It is in Polish but there is a brief English synopsis.

LabanTayo · 25th November 2006, 09:06 PM

I will have to start looking for it online. Do you know of anywhere in the states to buy it?

ariel · 25th November 2006, 09:13 PM

Ask Wolviex on this Forum. The best source by far!

Rivkin · 25th November 2006, 09:46 PM

Well, If one wishes, one can raise many counterpoints to this study, starting with the fact that he did not train with shamshir and therefore might have misundertood the nature of shamshir fencing. However since there is not a single person alive who "really" knows how to use shamshir (i.e. studied under Shah Abbas or something), I guess this comment can be applied to any study of shamshirs.

Attached are a few drawings (c) by Nakov - unsheathing shashka, circular cut, correct way to hold the grip.

spiral · 25th November 2006, 09:46 PM

So the Polish auther states...

That the Polish saber is "one of the best and most versatile sabers of the world."

mmmmmmm A Slight national pride involved in his oppinion perhaps?

Or with greater benifit of the doubt, perhaps familarity over many years with the style affecting his judgment slightly?

Sounds an intresting work though.

Spiral

25th November 2006, 08:52 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Fencing with Sabers To be sure: I use the word "fencing" as an equivalent of "swordplay", " sword fight" etc. It always has a meaning of "practical, military use". Choose your own favourite meaning, but be sure: this has nothing to do with the modern, official, Olympic sport. Now we can start. I just started re-reading the book by Wojciech Zablocki " Ciecia Prawdziwa Szabla", Warszawa 1989. ISBN 83-217-2601-1. Loose translation: Realistic use of a saber. Mr. Z. is a famous Polish Olympic fencer who decided to evaluate the practical worth of different sabers as fencing (remember the first paragraph!) weapons. To this end, he combined his training with the following research methods: 1.Studies of historical sabers in museum and private collections. This is quire remarkable: he personally used a total of 307 sabers: 15 Persian shamshirs, 23 Russian, 12 Arabian/Moorish, 6 Turkish 15th century, 27 Turkish 16th century, 23 Turkish 18-19th century, 2 Shashkas etc, etc, etc. These sabers were tested by him both during horseriding as well as on foot to get an idea of their suitability as cavalry weapons as well as infantry weapons. 2. Understanding of the mechanics of different sabers: eg, Kilij with Yelman and pistol grip; Nimcha with its characteristic handle; Shashka with no guard; Shamshir with highly-curved blade and a pommel bent 90 deg; Polish saber with thumb-ring etc, etc. 3. Analysis of old fencing manuals of 16-17th cen. and military drill handbooks of 18-19th century 4. Analysis of primary references: diaries of Polish noblemen describing saber encounters . Altogether, this is, in my mind, the best study of the true working parameters of different sabers. Conclusions: Most of the described saber bouts were fought on foot. Most of the damage was done to the head and Rt. arm Multiple parries and ripostes were the rule A saber bout between two horse riders produced many injuries but few fatalities. Examples: Late Kilij: very versatile, can be used for swinging cuts (on horseback) and circular cuts (on foot) Moroccan: good for swinging cuts from the elbow. Karabelas ( Polish type II, Russian, Turkish, Persian, Moldovian, Armenian): so-so, good mainly for circular cuts on foot. Mainly for decoration. Shashka: ... very good for swinging cuts from horseback, good for circular cuts.The lack of hand protection makes normal parries impossible; only swing parries and side-withdrawals ( djigitovka) on horseback were used Polish saber Type I ("hussar saber"): thumb ring enables quick direct cuts when duelling on foot. The center of percussion permits strong swinging cuts to be delivered from horseback. ...one of the best and most versatile sabers of the world. His severest criticism is reserved for... Persian shamshirs: "... are not the best for it is difficult to stop and to change the direction of a stroke. It seems that the high opinion enjoyed by Persian sabers was due rather to poetry and miniatures, than to the reality" Any opinions?

25th November 2006, 09:46 PM	#6
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	Well, If one wishes, one can raise many counterpoints to this study, starting with the fact that he did not train with shamshir and therefore might have misundertood the nature of shamshir fencing. However since there is not a single person alive who "really" knows how to use shamshir (i.e. studied under Shah Abbas or something), I guess this comment can be applied to any study of shamshirs. Attached are a few drawings (c) by Nakov - unsheathing shashka, circular cut, correct way to hold the grip. Attached Images

25th November 2006, 08:55 PM	#2
LabanTayo Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kansas City Posts: 177	Ariel, Is this book written in Polish? Sounds like a really interesting book and I love the idea behind it!!! I am in no way qualified to give my opinions of what is written, since the art and swords behind the research is not my forte. I still love the thought of it!!!

25th November 2006, 09:03 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	It is in Polish but there is a brief English synopsis.

25th November 2006, 09:06 PM	#4
LabanTayo Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kansas City Posts: 177	I will have to start looking for it online. Do you know of anywhere in the states to buy it?

25th November 2006, 09:13 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Ask Wolviex on this Forum. The best source by far!

25th November 2006, 09:46 PM	#7
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	So the Polish auther states... That the Polish saber is "one of the best and most versatile sabers of the world." mmmmmmm A Slight national pride involved in his oppinion perhaps? Or with greater benifit of the doubt, perhaps familarity over many years with the style affecting his judgment slightly? Sounds an intresting work though. Spiral