A Coteng for comment...

BSMStar · 6th February 2005, 05:47 PM

This is another area I am a bit in the dark on. Can any one enlighten me on this Coteng? Its age or any other information?

When I got it, it was not on the correct Keris.

BSMStar · 6th February 2005, 08:06 PM

This hilt is on a Panjang Keris.

BSMStar · 9th February 2005, 07:06 PM

By the way... if anyone knows... where you insert the peksi, appears to made from horn (inside the silver).

Is this a normal material for a Coteng?

nechesh · 9th February 2005, 11:53 PM

Wayne, i know very little about this form, but as the saying goes, I may not know art, but i know what i like!".

This conteng appears to be very nicely crafted. I like the silver work. It might be possible that the silver is actually laid over a horn base. Maybe it isn't just where you inset the pesi, but the entire core of the hilt. Do you have any idea of it's age?

Battara · 10th February 2005, 01:50 AM

Personally I like the silver work on the hilt. This is an earlier form of hilt and so maybe 18c?

BSMStar · 10th February 2005, 02:04 PM

nechesh,

No, I know less about this than you do. The horn could go through the whole Coteng, but I cannot tell. It has a grayish appearance where you can see it at the entrance area for the peksi. I was hoping you good folks could tell me.

Battara,

18c, wow!

Strangely enough, it is on a 20c Panjang. I find Guruda hilts fascinating, so I bought this Keris because of the Coteng... not the Keris.

Thank you for both your knowledge and input!

BSMStar · 10th February 2005, 11:37 PM

Battara,

My guess is that someone visited a "Keris shop," saw and liked the Panjang Keris... but (like me) liked and wanted the Coteng hilt on it. I imagine, if the price was right, the switch was made and the happy buyer went home with a very "strange" Keris combination.

Any thoughts???

BluErf · 11th February 2005, 04:21 PM

I would take the 18th century attribution really carefully. In my opinion, earlier forms are simpler and have less motifs on the surface. The nose is also shorter and straighter, and if I may describe them as such -- shorter and stouter. The curvature on the nose of this is funny, almost tajong-like. I have seen a 'baby' coteng in Paul's collection that has a slight curve at the end of the nose, but that's just a tiny little curl. The makara by the side of this hulu is unusually 'rounded'. The ones I have seen have some 'crispness' to it.

Also, notice the hair motif at the back of the hulu. I've only seen them on Sumatran hulu. And the multitude of rhombuses with the swirl inside -- I swear its a S. Sumatran motif.

Looking from top down, the hulu looks too narrow. A proper coteng/tajong should have a wide head looking from top down. I hazard this hulu may not be made in Pattani, but I stand to be corrected.

BSMStar · 11th February 2005, 04:40 PM

BluErf,

Interesting observations. I have seen two other Panjangs with somewhat similar hulus on them. It got me to thinking, what if.... what if they were intended to be this way? But, I was reminded that the swapped out story was more likely.

So is it possible... Panjangs with Coteng like hulus???

Can someone post some pictures to compare? Thanks!

Battara · 11th February 2005, 11:16 PM

Swapping.....unfortunately, a good point.

DAHenkel · 12th February 2005, 03:43 PM

These are very wierd. I have seen a number of obviously early coteng and the do not resemble this example. this makes me very suspicious. That said the workmanship and details are correct and authentic, although the form is dissimilar to the archetypeal examples I have seen.

My initail guess - fakes, made recently - 18th c. is out of the question. Authentic silver coteng hilts date to about the middle of the 19th c.

Much more research and examination of early provenanced examples needs to be done but I doubt this piece has much age to it. Someday maybe I will be able to get up there and find who is making these but give that it is hard enough to find anyone even willing to admit they speak Malay this may never happen.

BluErf · 13th February 2005, 01:05 AM

A hunch -- Someone in Riau or Java is making these 'proxies' of cotengs. They get the general sense of the aesthetics from looking at tajong and coteng kerises and they make the hulu based on pictures and a bit of artistic license. If you look at the hulu from the side, it looks most accurate, but the 'properness' begins to break down when you look at it from other angles. I feel that this was the result of looking at 2 dimensional pictures, which resulted in the hulu being accurate only in 2-dimension.

Because putting the handle on a panjang is closest to the real tajong/coteng in terms of proportions (long batang), so they did it.

Attach pictures of a Sumatran hulu with similar hair motif, and as for the rhombuses with a swirl, I have a picture of a Balinese hilt with such a motif. Come to think about it, I've seen this rhombus pattern mostly on N Coast and E Coast Java and Bali hulu. I have one other hulu in my collection which I do not have time to take pictures of. I think its S. Sumatran. It has the rhombus motif. Will post pictures later.

BluErf · 13th February 2005, 04:27 PM

Ok, after taking closer looks at coteng hulu from Dave and Paul's collection, I have to say this -- the hair motif, although Sumatran-looking, could possibly be found in similar form on a coteng hulu. So does the "swirl-in-rhombus" motif. Regardless, when I see the motifs, I still get this "something's not quite right" feeling.

BSMStar · 13th February 2005, 10:18 PM

Here is a link to Paul's Keris Page:

http://home1.pacific.net.sg/~dspf/index.html

Other links

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/taman.sari/k...ion/patani.htm
http://blade.japet.com/U-pattani.htm

The last link shows a wood version of a Coteng that is shaped over all like mine. Any comments?

Thank you BluErf for your pictures. I'm hoping for someone to post better pictures of older and newer Cotengs than the links I have here.

BSMStar · 14th February 2005, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

Ok, after taking closer looks at coteng hulu from Dave and Paul's collection, I have to say this -- the hair motif, although Sumatran-looking, could possibly be found in similar form on a coteng hulu. So does the "swirl-in-rhombus" motif. Regardless, when I see the motifs, I still get this "something's not quite right" feeling.

In looking at these links, one thing that stands out to me is that my hilt has a mendok like piece at its base. None of the other Coteng examples have this.

BluErf · 14th February 2005, 01:54 PM

Apart from the upward curving nose, I don't think they are very similar. Even the way the nose curves are different between the 2 hilts. The best way for you to appreciate the difference is really to look at a good old coteng hilt. Maybe some forum members can post bigger pics from their own collection to help illustrate?

DAHenkel · 15th February 2005, 12:07 PM

Okay - Mine is on the left, Paul's is on the right.

BSMStar · 15th February 2005, 11:29 PM

Now I am drooling.

Comparing these two great examples to mine.... I can see the mine is very different, more rounded (not as angular).

I still want to point out that mine has a "spherical" belly, sitting on a spherical rather than a teardrop shape "base." Also mine has a separate Mendok of solid silver, which no examples have that I have seen have a Mendok like piece at the base of the hilt.

Awesom examples!!!!!!!! Thanks!!!!!! Now, does mine classify as a repro?? Or something else?

Battara · 16th February 2005, 11:26 PM

Thank you Dahenkel. I now understand the point (every pun intended

) of the comparison as well.

BSMStar · 28th February 2005, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAHenkel

These are very wierd.

My initail guess - fakes, made recently - 18th c. is out of the question. Authentic silver coteng hilts date to about the middle of the 19th c.

Much more research and examination of early provenanced examples needs to be done ....

DAHenkel and BluErf,

Since this is likely not to be authentic... then this hulu can at least serve as an example of what is "floating around" today, and be useful as a reference (for what not to buy). Is there anything you would like pictures of or better pictures of???

BSMStar

6th February 2005, 05:47 PM	#1
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	A Coteng for comment... This is another area I am a bit in the dark on. Can any one enlighten me on this Coteng? Its age or any other information? When I got it, it was not on the correct Keris. Attached Images

6th February 2005, 08:06 PM	#2
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	By the way... This hilt is on a Panjang Keris.

9th February 2005, 07:06 PM	#3
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Horn? By the way... if anyone knows... where you insert the peksi, appears to made from horn (inside the silver). Is this a normal material for a Coteng?

10th February 2005, 02:04 PM	#6
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Age? 18c nechesh, No, I know less about this than you do. The horn could go through the whole Coteng, but I cannot tell. It has a grayish appearance where you can see it at the entrance area for the peksi. I was hoping you good folks could tell me. Battara, 18c, wow! Strangely enough, it is on a 20c Panjang. I find Guruda hilts fascinating, so I bought this Keris because of the Coteng... not the Keris. Thank you for both your knowledge and input!

10th February 2005, 11:37 PM	#7
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	18 c Coteng Battara, My guess is that someone visited a "Keris shop," saw and liked the Panjang Keris... but (like me) liked and wanted the Coteng hilt on it. I imagine, if the price was right, the switch was made and the happy buyer went home with a very "strange" Keris combination. Any thoughts???

9th February 2005, 11:53 PM	#4
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Wayne, i know very little about this form, but as the saying goes, I may not know art, but i know what i like!". This conteng appears to be very nicely crafted. I like the silver work. It might be possible that the silver is actually laid over a horn base. Maybe it isn't just where you inset the pesi, but the entire core of the hilt. Do you have any idea of it's age?

10th February 2005, 01:50 AM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,142	Personally I like the silver work on the hilt. This is an earlier form of hilt and so maybe 18c?

11th February 2005, 04:21 PM	#8
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	I would take the 18th century attribution really carefully. In my opinion, earlier forms are simpler and have less motifs on the surface. The nose is also shorter and straighter, and if I may describe them as such -- shorter and stouter. The curvature on the nose of this is funny, almost tajong-like. I have seen a 'baby' coteng in Paul's collection that has a slight curve at the end of the nose, but that's just a tiny little curl. The makara by the side of this hulu is unusually 'rounded'. The ones I have seen have some 'crispness' to it. Also, notice the hair motif at the back of the hulu. I've only seen them on Sumatran hulu. And the multitude of rhombuses with the swirl inside -- I swear its a S. Sumatran motif. Looking from top down, the hulu looks too narrow. A proper coteng/tajong should have a wide head looking from top down. I hazard this hulu may not be made in Pattani, but I stand to be corrected.

11th February 2005, 04:40 PM	#9
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	S. Sumatran Hulu BluErf, Interesting observations. I have seen two other Panjangs with somewhat similar hulus on them. It got me to thinking, what if.... what if they were intended to be this way? But, I was reminded that the swapped out story was more likely. So is it possible... Panjangs with Coteng like hulus??? Can someone post some pictures to compare? Thanks!

11th February 2005, 11:16 PM	#10
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,142	Swapping.....unfortunately, a good point.

12th February 2005, 03:43 PM	#11
DAHenkel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 125	These are very wierd. I have seen a number of obviously early coteng and the do not resemble this example. this makes me very suspicious. That said the workmanship and details are correct and authentic, although the form is dissimilar to the archetypeal examples I have seen. My initail guess - fakes, made recently - 18th c. is out of the question. Authentic silver coteng hilts date to about the middle of the 19th c. Much more research and examination of early provenanced examples needs to be done but I doubt this piece has much age to it. Someday maybe I will be able to get up there and find who is making these but give that it is hard enough to find anyone even willing to admit they speak Malay this may never happen.

13th February 2005, 01:05 AM	#12
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	A hunch -- Someone in Riau or Java is making these 'proxies' of cotengs. They get the general sense of the aesthetics from looking at tajong and coteng kerises and they make the hulu based on pictures and a bit of artistic license. If you look at the hulu from the side, it looks most accurate, but the 'properness' begins to break down when you look at it from other angles. I feel that this was the result of looking at 2 dimensional pictures, which resulted in the hulu being accurate only in 2-dimension. Because putting the handle on a panjang is closest to the real tajong/coteng in terms of proportions (long batang), so they did it. Attach pictures of a Sumatran hulu with similar hair motif, and as for the rhombuses with a swirl, I have a picture of a Balinese hilt with such a motif. Come to think about it, I've seen this rhombus pattern mostly on N Coast and E Coast Java and Bali hulu. I have one other hulu in my collection which I do not have time to take pictures of. I think its S. Sumatran. It has the rhombus motif. Will post pictures later. Attached Images

13th February 2005, 04:27 PM	#13
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Ok, after taking closer looks at coteng hulu from Dave and Paul's collection, I have to say this -- the hair motif, although Sumatran-looking, could possibly be found in similar form on a coteng hulu. So does the "swirl-in-rhombus" motif. Regardless, when I see the motifs, I still get this "something's not quite right" feeling.

13th February 2005, 10:18 PM	#14
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Here is a link to Paul's Keris Page: http://home1.pacific.net.sg/~dspf/index.html Other links http://perso.wanadoo.fr/taman.sari/k...ion/patani.htm http://blade.japet.com/U-pattani.htm The last link shows a wood version of a Coteng that is shaped over all like mine. Any comments? Thank you BluErf for your pictures. I'm hoping for someone to post better pictures of older and newer Cotengs than the links I have here. Last edited by BSMStar; 13th February 2005 at 10:48 PM.

14th February 2005, 01:54 PM	#16
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Apart from the upward curving nose, I don't think they are very similar. Even the way the nose curves are different between the 2 hilts. The best way for you to appreciate the difference is really to look at a good old coteng hilt. Maybe some forum members can post bigger pics from their own collection to help illustrate?

15th February 2005, 12:07 PM	#17
DAHenkel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 125	Okay - Mine is on the left, Paul's is on the right. Attached Images Last edited by DAHenkel; 15th February 2005 at 10:56 PM.

15th February 2005, 11:29 PM	#18
BSMStar Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO USA Posts: 312	Now I am drooling. Comparing these two great examples to mine.... I can see the mine is very different, more rounded (not as angular). I still want to point out that mine has a "spherical" belly, sitting on a spherical rather than a teardrop shape "base." Also mine has a separate Mendok of solid silver, which no examples have that I have seen have a Mendok like piece at the base of the hilt. Awesom examples!!!!!!!! Thanks!!!!!! Now, does mine classify as a repro?? Or something else? Last edited by BSMStar; 15th February 2005 at 11:40 PM.

16th February 2005, 11:26 PM	#19
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,142	Thank you Dahenkel. I now understand the point (every pun intended ) of the comparison as well.