Hand cannon ended on eBay

M ELEY · 27th July 2009, 02:20 AM

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=290328487119

Well, after Fernando and Matchlock have been wetting my appetite for one of these, I finally found one I was considering on bidding on. Problem was, it was a priviate auction and I've heard others to stay clear of these, especially from over-seas. I passed, and I guess everyone else did as well. This seller had a ton of signal cannons for sale and not one was bought. Hmmm...
Anyway, seemed like a legit piece, if mismarked. This isn't a signaller, is it?

fernando · 27th July 2009, 04:17 PM

Hi Mark,
You are most probably right in that it doesn't look like a signaller but, instead, a 'stockable' cannon, as shown by its shape. It looks like the real thing, and a nice one by the way but, no doubt Michael's opinnion is vital, as he has a clinic eye for these things

.
BTW, how did the guy know this has an Austrian origin

.
Fernando

M ELEY · 28th July 2009, 05:01 AM

Perhaps the cannon spoke Duetche?

Thanks for responding, Fernando. I was going to bid on this item, but I'm told private auctions should be avoided, although I'm not quite sure why? He seemed to have positive feedback, but NONE of his cannons, swords, etc, sold. Very curious.
So those with this shape that are not signallers are mounted on a stock vs what type mounted on a solid base?

fernando · 28th July 2009, 02:15 PM

Hi Mark,
Eventually i don't share eBay problematics, i am not even registered

.
Well, you don't actually need to mount signallers; you just place them loose on a (reasonably) flat surface, and they stand upright by themselves. Having no projectile to be directed to a target, you convenientely fire the thing vertically, throwing the noise and flame up in the air. So they are either conical in profile, or (mostly) tend to have a widened (rimmed) base, to provide a certain stability. This is why often signallers (or noise makers) touch holes have a sort of lip or pan, where you deposit the priming gunpowder.
I hope i haven't spoken much nonsense, or Michael pops up and hits me

.

Fernando

.

Matchlock · 28th July 2009, 03:11 PM

Hi Mark and Fernando,

First of all I guess that the seller thought that barrel was Austrian because unbelievably large numbers of these are still around in both Bavaria and Austria, where they are often employed as door stoppers in old houses. Forget about his tentative dating 'ca. 1750' though.

I attach the images for documentary purposes as they will not be around on Ebay for too long.

Secondly, Fernando is perfectly on the right track and made the final note by pointing out that the barrel was staged and the heavily swamped flat muzzle section would make an ideal land mark for the fore end of a stock.

Thirdly, before probably being around as a signaler and door stopper for two or three hundred years that barrel was definitely stocked and used for 'serious' purposes at the earlier stages of its working life which may have started as early as the 1440's!!! The small touch hole near the rear end and the large, flat muzzle head perfectly fit that Hussite Period.

Something very rarely found on early wrought iron barrels are the hammered longitudinal decorative grooves between the edges.

I include a scan of a similar barrel retaining its original stock and looped hook, now preserved at the Czech Military Museum in the Hradčany Castle Prague.

Best,
Michael

fernando · 28th July 2009, 04:05 PM

Oh Mark, what you have missed

.

Fernando

Matchlock · 28th July 2009, 04:25 PM

Slowly, Fernando,

All my judging was done on the basis of some very poor 10 kB images.

I just noted what seems to be a series of punched quite modern A's on the side towards the muzzle. We must not forget that all the early forms were repeated in the Historismus period of the second half of the 19th century - and what if this is not wrought iron but 19th c. cast iron?

Always be careful, especially with poor images.
Michael

M ELEY · 30th July 2009, 03:57 AM

Ha ha! Right back at ya, Fernando!

As a novice in this area, I am learning much from both of you. I still wasn't sure it was a legitimate auction, even if the piece were from the proper period, so it is just as well that I passed it up. I'm still on the path to learning when it comes to these.

Michael, you mention that these were made in the 19th century to resemble the older pieces. Was this done as a sort of salute to the old (such as Victorian swords designed to look like the earlier 15th-16th c. pieces were) or as a total con (such as fake 19th c. Egyptian ashrubi handed out to infatuated collectors were)?? I'm interested to hear about this revival and how does one really differentiate between cast and wrought iron (other than obvious casting line and flaws)?

Matchlock · 30th July 2009, 12:27 PM

Hi Mark,

Yes, the German Historismus was just the same movement in literature, arts and crafts as the English Victorian age and the époque Viollet-le-Duc in France. All these 19th century art forms took up the pure styles of earlier ages, copied them and mixed them up - the outcome were 'fantasy' trends like the Neo-Gothic and Neo-Renaissance periods.

And: yes, I think you mentioned the only ways to tell cast from wrought iron.

Best,
Michael

M ELEY · 30th July 2009, 02:10 PM

Thanks for the explanation, Michael. One final question on this piece. Do the series of punched letters automatically point to a more modern manufacture on these pieces, meaning earlier pieces will not be so marked? Or is it that the "A's" appear to be a more modern print of this type? Thanks,
Mark

Matchlock · 30th July 2009, 04:35 PM

You're welcome, Mark,

In my experience, this print pype of the letter A come only in use in the late 18th century. Using a series of it as a kind of deoration seems very awkward to me.

Best,
Michael

Spiridonov · 30th July 2009, 05:59 PM

Do you have more information about this gun? I interesting in calibre and barrel length ont another photos.

Matchlock · 31st July 2009, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spiridonov

Do you have more information about this gun? I interesting in calibre and barrel length ont another photos.

O.k., here we go:

Photos I took of the Prague haquebut and the measurements:

Overall length 135 cm, barrel length 41 cm, cal. 36 mm.

Best,
Michael

Spiridonov · 31st July 2009, 07:07 PM

Thanks. It is a very beutifull barrel

Maby you had mean 26 mm?

Matchlock · 1st August 2009, 02:19 PM

Hi Spiridonov,

In his 1998 book Illustriertes Lexikon der Handfeuerwaffen, Vladímir Dolínek, the curator in charge of the military museum Prague, states on p. 22 that the caliber of this gun is 36 mm.

Looking at the general proportions, though, I must say you may be right as it seems rather like 26 mm.

Best,
Michael

Spiridonov · 3rd August 2009, 09:24 PM

What is the nail behinde the touch hole of this barrel?

Matchlock · 4th August 2009, 05:02 PM

Honestly, I have no idea.

As it is nailed in too deeply no swiveling pan cover could have been possibly fixed there though.

Michael

27th July 2009, 02:20 AM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,072	Hand cannon ended on eBay http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=290328487119 Well, after Fernando and Matchlock have been wetting my appetite for one of these, I finally found one I was considering on bidding on. Problem was, it was a priviate auction and I've heard others to stay clear of these, especially from over-seas. I passed, and I guess everyone else did as well. This seller had a ton of signal cannons for sale and not one was bought. Hmmm... Anyway, seemed like a legit piece, if mismarked. This isn't a signaller, is it?

28th July 2009, 02:15 PM	#4
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Hi Mark, Eventually i don't share eBay problematics, i am not even registered . Well, you don't actually need to mount signallers; you just place them loose on a (reasonably) flat surface, and they stand upright by themselves. Having no projectile to be directed to a target, you convenientely fire the thing vertically, throwing the noise and flame up in the air. So they are either conical in profile, or (mostly) tend to have a widened (rimmed) base, to provide a certain stability. This is why often signallers (or noise makers) touch holes have a sort of lip or pan, where you deposit the priming gunpowder. I hope i haven't spoken much nonsense, or Michael pops up and hits me . Fernando . Attached Images

28th July 2009, 03:11 PM	#5
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Mark and Fernando, First of all I guess that the seller thought that barrel was Austrian because unbelievably large numbers of these are still around in both Bavaria and Austria, where they are often employed as door stoppers in old houses. Forget about his tentative dating 'ca. 1750' though. I attach the images for documentary purposes as they will not be around on Ebay for too long. Secondly, Fernando is perfectly on the right track and made the final note by pointing out that the barrel was staged and the heavily swamped flat muzzle section would make an ideal land mark for the fore end of a stock. Thirdly, before probably being around as a signaler and door stopper for two or three hundred years that barrel was definitely stocked and used for 'serious' purposes at the earlier stages of its working life which may have started as early as the 1440's!!! The small touch hole near the rear end and the large, flat muzzle head perfectly fit that Hussite Period. Something very rarely found on early wrought iron barrels are the hammered longitudinal decorative grooves between the edges. I include a scan of a similar barrel retaining its original stock and looped hook, now preserved at the Czech Military Museum in the Hradčany Castle Prague. Best, Michael Attached Images

28th July 2009, 04:25 PM	#7
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Slowly, Fernando, All my judging was done on the basis of some very poor 10 kB images. I just noted what seems to be a series of punched quite modern A's on the side towards the muzzle. We must not forget that all the early forms were repeated in the Historismus period of the second half of the 19th century - and what if this is not wrought iron but 19th c. cast iron? Always be careful, especially with poor images. Michael Attached Images

30th July 2009, 03:57 AM	#8
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,072	Ha ha! Right back at ya, Fernando! As a novice in this area, I am learning much from both of you. I still wasn't sure it was a legitimate auction, even if the piece were from the proper period, so it is just as well that I passed it up. I'm still on the path to learning when it comes to these. Michael, you mention that these were made in the 19th century to resemble the older pieces. Was this done as a sort of salute to the old (such as Victorian swords designed to look like the earlier 15th-16th c. pieces were) or as a total con (such as fake 19th c. Egyptian ashrubi handed out to infatuated collectors were)?? I'm interested to hear about this revival and how does one really differentiate between cast and wrought iron (other than obvious casting line and flaws)? Last edited by M ELEY; 30th July 2009 at 02:05 PM.

27th July 2009, 04:17 PM	#2
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Hi Mark, You are most probably right in that it doesn't look like a signaller but, instead, a 'stockable' cannon, as shown by its shape. It looks like the real thing, and a nice one by the way but, no doubt Michael's opinnion is vital, as he has a clinic eye for these things . BTW, how did the guy know this has an Austrian origin . Fernando

28th July 2009, 05:01 AM	#3
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,072	Perhaps the cannon spoke Duetche? Thanks for responding, Fernando. I was going to bid on this item, but I'm told private auctions should be avoided, although I'm not quite sure why? He seemed to have positive feedback, but NONE of his cannons, swords, etc, sold. Very curious. So those with this shape that are not signallers are mounted on a stock vs what type mounted on a solid base?

28th July 2009, 04:05 PM	#6
fernando Lead Moderator European Armoury Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,642	Oh Mark, what you have missed . Fernando

30th July 2009, 12:27 PM	#9
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Mark, Yes, the German Historismus was just the same movement in literature, arts and crafts as the English Victorian age and the époque Viollet-le-Duc in France. All these 19th century art forms took up the pure styles of earlier ages, copied them and mixed them up - the outcome were 'fantasy' trends like the Neo-Gothic and Neo-Renaissance periods. And: yes, I think you mentioned the only ways to tell cast from wrought iron. Best, Michael

30th July 2009, 02:10 PM	#10
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,072	Thanks for the explanation, Michael. One final question on this piece. Do the series of punched letters automatically point to a more modern manufacture on these pieces, meaning earlier pieces will not be so marked? Or is it that the "A's" appear to be a more modern print of this type? Thanks, Mark

30th July 2009, 04:35 PM	#11
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	You're welcome, Mark, In my experience, this print pype of the letter A come only in use in the late 18th century. Using a series of it as a kind of deoration seems very awkward to me. Best, Michael

30th July 2009, 05:59 PM	#12
Spiridonov Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Russia, Leningrad Posts: 355	Do you have more information about this gun? I interesting in calibre and barrel length ont another photos.

31st July 2009, 07:07 PM	#14
Spiridonov Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Russia, Leningrad Posts: 355	Thanks. It is a very beutifull barrel Maby you had mean 26 mm?

1st August 2009, 02:19 PM	#15
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Spiridonov, In his 1998 book Illustriertes Lexikon der Handfeuerwaffen, Vladímir Dolínek, the curator in charge of the military museum Prague, states on p. 22 that the caliber of this gun is 36 mm. Looking at the general proportions, though, I must say you may be right as it seems rather like 26 mm. Best, Michael

3rd August 2009, 09:24 PM	#16
Spiridonov Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Russia, Leningrad Posts: 355	What is the nail behinde the touch hole of this barrel?

4th August 2009, 05:02 PM	#17
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Honestly, I have no idea. As it is nailed in too deeply no swiveling pan cover could have been possibly fixed there though. Michael