A Flamberge Sword For Comments

[chmorshuutz]

Originally Posted by David

I have to say that i don't agree that any of these flamberge should be referred to a "kris". Regardless of spelling, a kris/keris/cris/etc is an asymmetric blade with a gonjo/gangya/etc, not simply any weapon with a wavy blade. I don't know what these northern swords with wavy blades are called within their cultures of origin, but somehow i doubt they called them "kris". Nor do i think it is necessary that these Northern Philippines swords needed to be made by Moro smiths.

Thesea are also called "kris" in non-Moro areas of Philippines too, at least as early as 1917. But I'm not sure if the older ones are referred as such, but there's a possibility since trade with Sultanates in Mindanao and Spanish Philippines did happen.

Some languages in Luzon (i.e. Tagalog) did use the term "kalis" (the term Moros used as well) as evidenced in 17th century Vocabulario de la Lengua Tagala. But as to what happened to kalis in the Christianized areas, it was never specified nor its connection with the non-Moro kris clearly established. The whole information and history about these non-Moro kris were quite murky.

[efrahjalt]

It appears from the examples posted and others that the handle may not be original. It doesn't seem to conform well to any forms associated with the blade type. There are some similarities to a few blades I have seen, but they are pretty distant. Here are some of the examples I'm referring to (first two images). They have a distantly similar pommel swell, and line motifs, but it's a bit of a stretch. The materials used also make me question as they also seems atypical for these blades. The handle appears to be made of 4 materials: aluminum, stacked leather, phenolic, and some kind dense hardwood or possibly another resin product similar to phenolic. The materials seem to all be very robust and completely solid in construction, so there is quality there, but they just seem off. Perhaps a bring back from the Spanish American war that was re-hilted?

Originally Posted by Ian

Thanks for bringing up that old thread. I agree that a northern Luzon origin is a distinct possibility. However, as you will see from the comments of Battara in that thread, there are/were Moro craftsmen in northern Luzon/Ilocos Norte also. The example that I showed in that thread (post no. 14) lacks a central ridge to the blade.

Ian, Please tell me more about the significance of the central ridge.

[David]

Originally Posted by chmorshuutz

Thesea are also called "kris" in non-Moro areas of Philippines too, at least as early as 1917. But I'm not sure if the older ones are referred as such, but there's a possibility since trade with Sultanates in Mindanao and Spanish Philippines did happen.

Some languages in Luzon (i.e. Tagalog) did use the term "kalis" (the term Moros used as well) as evidenced in 17th century Vocabulario de la Lengua Tagala. But as to what happened to kalis in the Christianized areas, it was never specified nor its connection with the non-Moro kris clearly established. The whole information and history about these non-Moro kris were quite murky.

Frankly i am not sure that "kris" is even a word that had much indigenous use at all even with Moro blades. Each Moro tribe has it's own terminology for what we call the kris. But the Moro kris is obviously derived from it's Indonesian cousin. It is larger and became a slashing rather than a stabbing weapon, but the parts are in the same form. Asymmetrical blade (either straight or wavy) and a separate "guard" piece (gonjo or gangya). A keris/keris is not determined by a wavy blade and i believe that calling everything with a wavy blade a kris is a bit of a misnomer. I am sure that these wavy blades from Luzon and other northern Philippines areas had a local name at some time that was not simply "kris".

[A. G. Maisey]

I have been under the impression for many years that correct terminology for a weapon with a waved blade is that this type of weapon has a "flamboyant" blade. Thus, a "flame-like" blade (Oxford).

A keris, spelt in any way but referring to the same type of weapon that sometimes has a waved blade, does have a flamboyant blade when it is waved.

But all weapons with flamboyant blades are certainly not keris, or even keris-like.

[Battara]

It depends on the tribe and the time period. Some do use "kris" and others use "sundang" among other terms for example.

[David]

Originally Posted by Battara

It depends on the tribe and the time period. Some do use "kris" and others use "sundang" among other terms for example.

Can you tell me what research this is based upon?

[Ian]

Originally Posted by efrahjalt

... Ian, Please tell me more about the significance of the central ridge.

Hi efrahjalt,

A central ridge is created on an initially straight blade, and then the waves (luk) are forged back and forth along its central axis (reflected by the ridge)—the central ridge thus becomes wavy during the forging process.

This is in contrast to stock removal. Again, one starts with a straight blade and a central ridge, but the waves are ground directly into the edge of the blade. In this case, the central ridge remains straight and the luk have a pointed appearance.

If a blade is forged from flat stock a central ridge is absent. This is probably the norm for most Moro kris, but some do have a central ridge.

Many wavy bladed knives and swords made elsewhere in the Philippines often have a central ridge. This is particularly true for those made in northern and central Luzon. Flat bladed, wavy swords are relatively uncommon from Luzon.