Ethnographic Arms & Armour
 

Go Back   Ethnographic Arms & Armour > Discussion Forums > Ethnographic Weapons
User Name
Password
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 8th June 2019, 03:02 PM   #1
francantolin
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 288
Default Ottoman kilij blade with ( Kufic) calligraphy, syrian presentation case ?

Hello everybody,

A good friend bought this blade some time ago,
a kilij ( turkish ?) shape ( I think ) but it is a really long piece !
1 meter - 39,4 inches long !

Maybe I will buy it !

Do you think its an old blade ?

Maybe with more recent engravings ?

The engravings on the blade are nice and well made,
I think the style is Kufic calligraphy
but many signs are strange/ unusual ...

so I wonder if it was really made by arabophone craftsman or maybe is it indian work ( per example ) ?

It comes with a nice wooden box,
Syrian-north african style ?
Well made too, I like it ! ( and 1m12 - 44 inches long !... )
It don't seems too old, maybe from the middle 20th century ?...

In the box, there is still the shape for put the complete sword with mounts and scabbard, more the shape of a shamshir hilt.

Where are they now ?!

The blade fits good inside, I think it's the right blade made for this box case.

What do you think ?!

Thank you
Attached Images
    
francantolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th June 2019, 03:04 PM   #2
francantolin
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 288
Default

The box...
Attached Images
    
francantolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th June 2019, 03:09 PM   #3
francantolin
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 288
Default

Here the golden calligraphy,
can anybody translate ?
( If possible )
Attached Images
     
francantolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th June 2019, 03:12 PM   #4
francantolin
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 288
Default

.
Attached Images
    
francantolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th June 2019, 03:14 PM   #5
francantolin
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 288
Default

I just recognise '' Allah ''
in the center of this picture.
Attached Images
 
francantolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 8th June 2019, 09:37 PM   #6
YataganMan
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 14
Smile ottoman kilich blade ??

What this is ,is a cheap newly made syrian imitation of an ottoman blade, floating in numbers in istanbul going for about 100 -150 us dollars.The overlay is not ottoman but again simply a degenerated copy of kufic work which is difficult to translate.The shape of blade
its size ,possibly its weight and the ornementation are all wrong.Sorry to be sounding very negative but Id let the buyer beaware (cveat emptor )
Regards
Yataganman
YataganMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th June 2019, 12:50 PM   #7
A.alnakkas
Member
 
A.alnakkas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Kuwait
Posts: 1,230
Default

Hello,

Can you take better photos of the steel? Syrians make blades that look great but those blades tend to be crowbar heavy. A pattern can tell a lot. Tang is definitely new but that is ok.
A.alnakkas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th June 2019, 10:02 PM   #8
francantolin
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 288
Default

Hello,

Here some closest pics,
Not to easy to do...

First I found just this kind of stripes on the blade
( + lot of scratches ... )
Attached Images
  
francantolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th June 2019, 10:06 PM   #9
francantolin
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 288
Default

In a few places,
I found I guess a pattern...
What do you think ?
Attached Images
    
francantolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th June 2019, 04:34 AM   #10
A.alnakkas
Member
 
A.alnakkas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Kuwait
Posts: 1,230
Default

Gold looks a lot better than the modern stuff so I am not sure. Polish a small area and etch?
A.alnakkas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th June 2019, 08:57 AM   #11
francantolin
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 288
Default

Hello,
Thank you, yes it's necessary for know / being fixed

I first have to buy it !
I think I'll do.

I'll post pictures

Kind regards
francantolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th June 2019, 09:17 AM   #12
A.alnakkas
Member
 
A.alnakkas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Kuwait
Posts: 1,230
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by francantolin
Hello,
Thank you, yes it's necessary for know / being fixed

I first have to buy it !
I think I'll do.

I'll post pictures

Kind regards


Last image looks like wootz, not scratches. But worth working on it!
A.alnakkas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th June 2019, 03:38 PM   #13
francantolin
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 288
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by YataganMan
What this is ,is a cheap newly made syrian imitation of an ottoman blade, floating in numbers in istanbul going for about 100 -150 us dollars.The overlay is not ottoman but again simply a degenerated copy of kufic work which is difficult to translate.The shape of blade
its size ,possibly its weight and the ornementation are all wrong.Sorry to be sounding very negative but Id let the buyer beaware (cveat emptor )
Regards
Yataganman


Hello,
I find the quality of this blade quite good, ( flexible-but not that much)
the engravings are really well made, not cheap touristic work

If they are like this one, 150 $ is a really good price !
have you got a picture of these swords to compare please ?
francantolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th June 2019, 08:01 PM   #14
A.alnakkas
Member
 
A.alnakkas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Kuwait
Posts: 1,230
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by YataganMan
What this is ,is a cheap newly made syrian imitation of an ottoman blade, floating in numbers in istanbul going for about 100 -150 us dollars.The overlay is not ottoman but again simply a degenerated copy of kufic work which is difficult to translate.The shape of blade
its size ,possibly its weight and the ornementation are all wrong.Sorry to be sounding very negative but Id let the buyer beaware (cveat emptor )
Regards
Yataganman


Well, last images do show a tight wootz pattern. I know the swords you are talking about, this one is not one of them.
A.alnakkas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th June 2019, 08:44 PM   #15
Kubur
Member
 
Kubur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,521
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by YataganMan
What this is ,is a cheap newly made syrian imitation of an ottoman blade, floating in numbers in istanbul going for about 100 -150 us dollars.The overlay is not ottoman but again simply a degenerated copy of kufic work which is difficult to translate.The shape of blade
its size ,possibly its weight and the ornementation are all wrong.Sorry to be sounding very negative but Id let the buyer beaware (cveat emptor )
Regards
Yataganman


Yata is absolutely right, this blade is absolutely crap.
I was thinking that the rules are we can't talk about something for sale...
I suspect that no dealer on the forum will buy this sword so the rules can be transpassed...
Kubur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th June 2019, 11:55 AM   #16
francantolin
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 288
Wink

So, the blade,
polished and etched a little.

Not that bad for a scrap tourist blade isn't it !?!!!

Can someone help for exact origin and age,
would be fair !

Kind regards
Attached Images
    
francantolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th June 2019, 01:30 PM   #17
A.alnakkas
Member
 
A.alnakkas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Kuwait
Posts: 1,230
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by francantolin
So, the blade,
polished and etched a little.

Not that bad for a scrap tourist blade isn't it !?!!!

Can someone help for exact origin and age,
would be fair !

Kind regards


Well done! could etch even better. Pattern looks Persian? I am no expert in identifying patterns but definitely well made. Inscriptions are odd. If you can send better photos I will try to read. Email them to me (check private messages)
A.alnakkas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th June 2019, 02:34 PM   #18
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 4,490
Default

Well , if similar blades are sold in Istanbul for $200 apiece, I am buying a ticket there and bring a thick wad of cash and a big trunk to fit as many of those fakes as I can find.
Our Turkish colleagues seem to have very high opinion of their compatriot bladesmithsí skills and unjustifiably low opinion on their financial acumen:-))))))
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th June 2019, 07:07 PM   #19
A.alnakkas
Member
 
A.alnakkas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Kuwait
Posts: 1,230
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ariel
Well , if similar blades are sold in Istanbul for $200 apiece, I am buying a ticket there and bring a thick wad of cash and a big trunk to fit as many of those fakes as I can find.
Our Turkish colleagues seem to have very high opinion of their compatriot bladesmithsí skills and unjustifiably low opinion on their financial acumen:-))))))


I understand and know the type of swords that are confused with this blade. Still, the declaration that this blade is "crap" was bewildering. Obviously this sword has been in the hands of a restorer who made the poorly fitted tang, but the gold work and the blade shape is not what the Syrians currently make.

Speaking of the gold work... looks to be good old work?
A.alnakkas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th June 2019, 09:13 PM   #20
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 4,490
Default

Yea, I know exactly the kind what you think. My guess , they are made in Syria and sold thru Turkey: mail service in Damascus over the past several years left much to be desired.
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th June 2019, 01:46 AM   #21
Lee
EAAF Staff
 
Lee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Upstate New York, USA
Posts: 684
Default

Just an aside, I bought a similar box devoid of the sword several years ago at the Brimfield flea market for $100. I attribute that box as Syrian and not more than a few decades old. The dealer said it had contained a 'very nice' sword that had been presented to someone who had worked in the Middle East and that she had sold the sword for 'good money' previously (not at the same flea market.) It seemed a shame to me that for that valuation of the box that it was not kept with the sword, but, then again, it fits my old Saudi saif perfectly. I'll never know if my sword was an upgrade or downgrade...
Lee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th June 2019, 07:11 AM   #22
francantolin
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 288
Default

Hello and thank you all,

I thought too about a gift box for diplomats or business men working in middle east.

The friend who bought this ''presentation'' box with the blade told me it was sold as a lot in an auction: sold with an old wood Koran stand ( egyptian or syrian he thinks).

He collects antiques-oriental furnitures and paintings,
edged weapons are not really his interest...
So I bought it...
francantolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th June 2019, 07:11 AM   #23
ALEX
Member
 
ALEX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 883
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by francantolin
So, the blade,
polished and etched a little.

Not that bad for a scrap tourist blade isn't it !?!!!

Can someone help for exact origin and age,
would be fair !

Kind regards


Not bad at all !!! Good job etching!
I was also surprised by some negative comments on this blade. It is not to be confused with modern blades from Istanbul, other markets and on-line, it is nothing like. It is of crucible steel, the writing is unusual but in true inlay and of good quality, the box is also fine. The blade looks to be 19thC, probably Persian or Syrian (I'd say Syrian, as the box is Syrian, as other items it came with). Can be restored nicely by adding proper crossguard and hilt.
ALEX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th June 2019, 07:12 AM   #24
francantolin
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 288
Default

Glad Lee,
if you share a picture of your saif and the box,
I must be really nice !!
francantolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th June 2019, 07:13 AM   #25
francantolin
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 288
Default

Thank you Alex !
francantolin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th June 2019, 07:21 AM   #26
ALEX
Member
 
ALEX's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 883
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by francantolin
Thank you Alex !


You're most welcome!
Also, I had similar blade with similar welded tang. The blade was antique wootz of similar pattern, it was also Persian or Syrian, and I know that the weld repair was done in Syria in the late 1900's, as it was common practice there to "restore" that way. I believe yours came by the same way.
Also, congrats on buying it. A profound bargain, and even includes the free presentation box
ALEX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th June 2019, 06:09 AM   #27
sfenoid13
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 82
Default

Just because the blade is Damascus steel or wootz doesnít mean itís an antique piece. There are many bladesmiths in Syria and Turkey still make very good Damascus steel blades. I have to agree that this is a replica of a pala /kilic/shamshir. Definitely modern made. Have seen better ones new for sale in Turkey. If you like what you see and understand what it is yes you can still buy it but dont think itís a 200 year old sword. Other than that yes well made blade
And the gold writings are not Ottoman.
sfenoid13 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th June 2019, 07:17 AM   #28
mariusgmioc
Member
 
mariusgmioc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 1,214
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sfenoid13
Just because the blade is Damascus steel or wootz doesnít mean itís an antique piece. There are many bladesmiths in Syria and Turkey still make very good Damascus steel blades. I have to agree that this is a replica of a pala /kilic/shamshir. Definitely modern made. Have seen better ones new for sale in Turkey. If you like what you see and understand what it is yes you can still buy it but dont think itís a 200 year old sword. Other than that yes well made blade
And the gold writings are not Ottoman.


No, there aren't ANY bladesmiths that can replicate the patterns of old wootz! Not a single one! And definitely not in Syria or Turkey.

The Georgian Zaqro Nonikashvili is arguably the best modern maker of wootz, but still his blades are quite far from the old wootz. The Russian Ivan Kirpichev comes close by, as there are a couple of Scandinavian smiths. There are a few lesser known Indian smiths who can make fairly good wootz but it is mostly of the crystalline type or sham. The same goes for the few American smiths.

I am quite positive this IS an old blade (significantly older than 200 years), and judging by its shape and decoration, I would dare to say it is around 300 years old.

And yes, the pattern of the wootz appears to be Persian (larger streaks of watering pattern as opposed to very fine streaks in Indian wootz). With quality etching it my reveal it to be Kara Taban or Kara Khorasan. A very, very high quality blade.

My two cents.
mariusgmioc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th June 2019, 09:10 AM   #29
ariel
Member
 
ariel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 4,490
Default

AFAIK, nobody except for Nonikashvili is currently capable of making a long wootz blade, and his swords go for $1000's.
I have no doubts about the authenticity.
This was not just an excellent buy, but an unbelievable one! Congrats!
ariel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th June 2019, 12:55 PM   #30
Lee
EAAF Staff
 
Lee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Upstate New York, USA
Posts: 684
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by francantolin
Glad Lee,
if you share a picture of your saif and the box,
I must be really nice !!
I'll have to take some pictures of the presentation box, but the
saif was previously presented in this thread
Lee is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT. The time now is 12:38 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.0.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Posts are regarded as being copyrighted by their authors and the act of posting material is deemed to be a granting of an irrevocable nonexclusive license for display here.