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Old 7th June 2019, 01:51 PM   #1
Multumesc
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Default Beautiful sword

Hello. I saw this beautiful sword. What can you tell me about her?Thank you very much.
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Old 7th June 2019, 01:56 PM   #2
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Default Beautiful sword

OTHER IMAGES.
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Old 7th June 2019, 11:42 PM   #3
Battara
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Looks possibly Hungarian to me.
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Old 8th June 2019, 09:30 AM   #4
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Default Karabela

it's a Polish sabre, called Karabela.
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Old 8th June 2019, 09:31 AM   #5
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Default Karabea

About 17th century
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Old 8th June 2019, 06:41 PM   #6
Jim McDougall
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This sword is indeed very attractive, and a rendition of the traditional Ottoman, East European style known as the 'karabela' (hilt form with of course varying blades).
The origins of this style hilt (regarded as a highly stylized 'eaglehead') remain debated, as seen in discussions here over many years, but some of the most useful and well researched material I have found in them has come from Ariel, Teodor (TVV) and Jeff D. In using the search feature here I was able to find much valuable material using term 'karabela'.

To offer an overview, there are contentions that the style existed long before the suggestions that Shah Abbas' reconquest of Karbala (Iraq/Mesopotamia) in 1623, thus dispelling the notion that his seeing them there inspired the hilt form allegedly encountered there. That the form existed in Ottoman sphere is supported by an example marked with the tughra of Sultan Ahmed I (r 1603-17).

Apparently the karabela hilt became popular in Poland after the Siege of Vienna(1683) after which it became regarded as the 'national sword of Poland', and typically seen as a 'parade sabre'. These however are of course known incidentally as having been used in battle.

The example seen here is of course in traditional style, as noted in the form known as early as early 16th c. but popularized in latter 17th c.
These karabela hilted sabres were well known in Poland in the 18th c. and the chevron inscribed grips and Ottoman style crossguard are characteristic.

This one has a blade which approximates that of a kilij and quite possibly of Styrian production, as many East European sabre blades of this period are.
In "Origins of the Polish Sabre" (1979, Ostrowski & Bochnak) it is noted that Hungarian blade production, if there was any such thing, was extremely limited. Many Polish blades may have come from Lvov.

I would consider this may be late 18th century, but carried out in traditional form. As always, very hard to determine from photos. One must always beware that modern copies or assemblies do exist and carefully evaluate. I have seen 'karabelas' with modern mountings using old blades.

The images below are Ottoman karabelas, the one with dark background was apparently from the siege of Vienna 1683.

The artwork is by Albrecht Durer (1471-1528) where a karabela hilt can be clearly seen .
The next is a Russian reference with a karabela.
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Old 8th June 2019, 07:43 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Apparently the karabela hilt became popular in Poland after the Siege of Vienna(1683) after which it became regarded as the 'national sword of Poland', and typically seen as a 'parade sabre'. These however are of course known incidentally as having been used in battle.
...


After the charge of the Polish Winged Hussars, there were a lot of ones lying about as their previous owners didn't need them any more. parading them as battle trophys is logical. Lots of yats became instant war surplus too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jibk6hvhlG0

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Old 8th June 2019, 09:11 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kronckew
After the charge of the Polish Winged Hussars, therer were a lot of ones lying about as their previous owners didn't need them any more. parading them as battle trophys is logical. Lots of yats became instant war surplus too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jibk6hvhlG0



Much the same as the 'mameluke' case with the Ottoman 'pistol grip' sabres used by the Mamluks in Egypt during the Napoleonic campaigns. Both British and French military officers were deeply impressed with them and took to having their own sabres designed after them. At the same time the design became favored by American officers where it became the official hilt design for the USMC officers sabre.

Honorific adoption of the weapon forms of a formidable enemy is not uncommon.
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Old 8th June 2019, 09:30 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim McDougall
...

Honorific adoption of the weapon forms of a formidable enemy is not uncommon.



Especially when the weapon is better looking than the one you have been given. Sadly the US Army preferred the french 'Phrygian hat' pommel for their own sabres, which I think is ugly. Much prefer the clean lines of the british,the Hussars (and German variants) and poles and Ottoman versions. The US Marine ifficer sword looks like a slightly anorexic version of the British general officers version of the French Mamaluke sabre of the senior officers, based on the Egyptian campaign experiences...or the later 'gladius' forms that replaced the D-guard Briquets where looking cool overshadowed function in times where they were already an anachronism rarely if ever used as a weapon.
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Old 9th June 2019, 01:16 PM   #10
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Default Beautiful sword

However, Latin letters appear on the blade. How does it translate?
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Old 9th June 2019, 01:18 PM   #11
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Default Beautiful sword

And the three points?
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Old 9th June 2019, 02:40 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Multumesc
However, Latin letters appear on the blade. How does it translate?


the letters under the languet look like a latin variant from eastern asia minor or georgian/casucasian language, cyrillic script? Lots of wierd writings in the eastern black sea area. sadly, they seem defaced.

ɝɝɚɖɗɘɕ? they make my brain hurt. One form, there are others:
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Old 9th June 2019, 03:05 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Multumesc
And the three points?


The three dots? Talismanic?

seen these before somewhere here, frequently at the ends of fullers, like my khanda/tulwar which has a plethora of fotted circles.
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Old 9th June 2019, 05:01 PM   #14
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Default Frumoasa sabie

It seems to me that he writes GENOA.
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Old 9th June 2019, 05:22 PM   #15
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Default Frumoasa sabie

GENOA ? I have seen swords with GENOA.
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Old 9th June 2019, 05:57 PM   #16
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Very well observed guys!!! I saw the letters but did not associate them with GENOA, which would make perfect sense. Many of the Styrian blades from various centers favored Italian markings, with the 'sickle' marks (the dentated eyelash arcs) most typically seen. Often the word GENOA appeared between these arcs, though some had the mysterious 'acrostic' (?) FRINGIA in its place.

While the three dot configuration typically was at either end of each arc, these were often placed at various other locations, with other marks or in varying configurations. Some references have suggested these symbolize grapes (?) but I think it more likely to represent the Holy Trinity, much as the cross was often use along with names and phrases in western swords.

The triple dot symbol is as noted often seen on blades in India as in various Asian and Eastern spheres, again typically regarded as having to do with the 'Trimurti' or trinity in other religious contexts as well.

These kinds of marks in the case of the 'dots' on such weapons seem to appear in strategic locations on the blade, as if to auspiciously augment or bolster that spot. In other cases, the three dots re: trinity may be applied to emphasize or 'bless' a phrase, motto or name in such manner. There are many possibilities and variations of course, and these notes are simply speculations.

Genoa was one of the key export points of North Italian blade making centers, and it is believed this was perhaps the reason for such emphatic recognition of Genoa on Italian blades, often in general. As such, the centers in Styria and other East European supply entrepots for blades often copied these markings, and in this case, may have used local script (as suggested by Wayne) to approximate the Genoan moniker. As seen in the plate of markings sometimes it can be misspelled or awkwardly reproduced as in the example where it is hard to read and presuming this to be Genoa meant.


Wayne, those dotted circles as seen on this Indian sword are most commonly seen in Northern India, Afghanistan and into many Central Asian regions. They may be regarded in this character as perhaps astral, with the sun represented, as certain Rajput clans were represented by sun, moon etc.
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Old 11th June 2019, 04:15 PM   #17
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Default Beautiful sword

And ultimately, from what century is this karabela sword
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Old 11th June 2019, 04:47 PM   #18
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Hard to say, they've been around a while. Mine is apparently early 20c where there was a revival of popularity & some officers carried them on parade. I'm fairly sure it's polish tho the inscription is in latin. Wiki, notoriously inaccurate has a listing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karabela that indicated it's use in Poland to to the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polis...an_Commonwealth but it as noted here was used elsewhere much earlier. Hopegully somone acn help pin it down.
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Old 11th June 2019, 08:51 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Multumesc
And ultimately, from what century is this karabela sword



Sorry the discourse was not more explicit, we got side tracked with the history of the form In my opinion this is likely a much older blade but remounted in a 'karabela' style hilt more recently made.

Actually these karabela sabres have I believe been pretty much regularly used in a parade or ceremonial sense since the end of the 17th c., which is why they have often been described as the 'national sword of Poland'. While it seems odd that a sword of apparent Ottoman heritage would be so chosen, but the victory over the Turks by Polish king John Sobieski III at Vienna in 1683 was one of the most significant in Polish history.
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Old 12th June 2019, 06:15 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kronckew
Hard to say, they've been around a while. Mine is apparently early 20c where there was a revival of popularity & some officers carried them on parade. I'm fairly sure it's polish tho the inscription is in latin. Wiki, notoriously inaccurate has a listing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karabela that indicated it's use in Poland to to the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polis...an_Commonwealth but it as noted here was used elsewhere much earlier. Hopegully somone acn help pin it down.


It is Polish (made in Poland) and I believe more recent, likely late 20thC if not early 21st. I believe the blade is stiff and heavy, which would indicate its decorative nature, the hilt is stained soft wood and pins are of modern art-supply type.
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