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Old 6th February 2013, 05:46 PM   #1
dana_w
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Default Deop Gunsmith Family of Catalonia

I have been spending a lot of time lately researching Arm and Armor makers from Catalonia. Most of the information I need is only available in expensive out of print books written in Spanish or Catalan. The first of these books that I have been able to purchase is “Diccionario Biografico de Artistas de Cataluna, desde la epoca romana hasta nuestros días.” Biographical Dictionary of Artists of Catalonia, from Roman times to the present. By J. F. Rafols and published in 1951.

Can anyone please help me with a translation on the Deop family of gun-makers. Google Translate is not much help. Here is what I know about them so far from "A History of Spanish Firearms" by Dr. James D. Lavin (1965), Page 219-220.

Deop was Ripoll`s first family of gunsmiths. They supposedly immigrated from Germany in the mid sixteenth century, and were still manufacturing gun locks well into the nineteenth century. The size and long history of this family contributes to the confusion when trying to identify an individual maker.

Attached are two photographs of a holster pistol with a lock made by Augusti Deop, and two pages of information on Deop makers in Spanish.

Images Copyright © 2013 Dana K. Williams All Rights Reserved.
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Old 8th February 2013, 02:14 AM   #2
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Here is an example of how the on-line translators handle the first section.

Google Translate
Malestros Eshirpe of gunsmiths miciada eu Ripoll xvx mid century, where prcsiguio far into the nineteenth century.
Apparently it was Orlunda of Central Europe and that there were three Deep - Peter, Arnaldo and Gimldo - that establecleron in
that city. This surname was often eutre ripollenses gunsmiths, which specialized in Pany << >> so that the
panyetaixes << name >>, asf estlrpes other specialized in enceps << >> or << cenons >>. Their weapons are abundant in punzén
ripollenses arrivals until nuescros times.

Bing Translate

Malestros dealers miciada eu Ripoll in the middle of the XIX century Eshirpe, where are prcsiguio to very entrance century xrx.
Seems it was orlunda in central Europe and that three were the Deep - Peter, Arnaldo and Gimldo - that is establecleron in
the ville. This last name was frequent bead the dealers ripollenses, which specialized in < < company > > so it is the
It was called < < panyetaixes > >, as well as other estlrpes specialized in < < enceps > > or < < cenons > >. Its punzen abounds in guns them
ripollenses departures up to nuescros times.
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Old 8th February 2013, 06:11 PM   #3
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Dear Dana:

"Pistoles, trabucs i pedrenyals" by Martí, Salas and Calvó. Lexic:

Pedrenyals: wheellock gun

Pany: lock

Panyetaire: lock maker

Pedrenyaler: gun maker

Serraller: cerrajero (castellano) lock of door

Pedrenyaler: pedrenyal maker

canó: Barrel

canoner: barrel maker

enceps: stoks

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Old 8th February 2013, 06:25 PM   #4
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Thanks so much Fernando K, that is a great help.

Is there anything I can look up for you in these books?
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Old 8th February 2013, 08:05 PM   #5
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Dana:

I do not understand. I have photocopias.........

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Old 9th February 2013, 01:42 AM   #6
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Do you own “Diccionario Biografico de Artistas de Cataluna, desde la epoca romana hasta nuestros días” Fernando K?

If not, I will be glad to look up anything for you.
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Old 9th February 2013, 09:46 AM   #7
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Dear Dana:

No. Thank you. I can, if desired, to improve a translation

Sincerely, Fernando K
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Old 9th February 2013, 01:12 PM   #8
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I Guess Fernando K translating engine has betrayed him .
Pedrenyal is a flintlock gun (a sort of big pistol).
Serraller, like Panyetaire, is a lock smith; only that serraller is a more generic name.
If you pick one or two of those Diop guys, i may translate what the book says about them.

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Old 9th February 2013, 01:24 PM   #9
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Augusti Deop. Master lock smith from 1700’s Ripoll. Recorded between 1720 - 1750 in the archives of Ripoll Ethnographic Museum. His mark (punzon) may be seen in the lock of flint pistol (pedrenal) nr. 25678 of the inventory of the Board of Barcelona Museums.
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Old 9th February 2013, 01:56 PM   #10
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Thanks for the help Fernando and Fernando K. I probably shouldn't have put so much information up at once.

Living here in Florida I know many people who speak Spanish, but they are not familiar with the lexicon of Arms and Armor.
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Old 9th February 2013, 05:44 PM   #11
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essionar una palanca.

A Catalunya se lánomena pedrenyal, se le coneix ben aviat i adopta formes particulars i definedes, que el diferencien dels seus equivalent de la reste de Europe.


Estimado Fernando ( y Dana)

Pedrenyal: me permito copiar un párrafo de "Pistoles, trabucs i pedrenyals", de Martí, Salas y Calvó:

"al segleXVI apareix a Europaun mecanisme, el pany de roda (wheellock),capaç, de acumular l'energía necessaria per produiruna ignico instantania en un arma, amb la senzill accio de pressionar una palanca.

A Catalunya se lánomena pedrenyal, se le coneix ben aviat i adopta formes particulars i definedes, que el diferencien dels seus equivalent de la reste de Europe.
Estimado Fernando ( y Dana)

Pedrenyal: me permito copiar un párrafo de "Pistoles, trabucs i pedrenyals", de Martí, Salas y Calvó:

"al segleXVI apareix a Europaun mecanisme, el pany de roda (wheellock),capaç, de acumular l'energía necessaria per produiruna ignico instantania en un arma, amb la senzill accio de pressionar una palanca.

A Catalunya se lánomena pedrenyal, se le coneix ben aviat i adopta formes particulars i definedes, que el diferencien dels seus equivalent de la reste de Europe.



Lavin, página 230 de su libro:
"Locally, these pistols were called "pedreñales""

Dizionario Enciclopédico Italiano:
Petrinale: ( o pettrinale):s.m. del fr. petrinal, che dallo spagnolo pedrenal "pietra focaia". Schioppeto a ruota, etc

Don Quijote de la Mancha, Segunda parte, Madrid, 1615:
"Dormía de pié, interropiendo el sueño, mudándose de un lugar otro: todo era poner espías, escuchar centinelas, soplar las cuerdas de los arcabuces, auque traian pocos porque todos se servían de pedreñales"

SERRALLER: en el texto citado se encuentra diferenciado de "panyetariue", de modo que creo que se debe referir a "cerrajero (key maker)
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Old 9th February 2013, 05:47 PM   #12
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Dear Fernando (and Dana)

Pedrenyal: I would like to copy a paragraph of "Pistoles, trabucs i pedrenyals", Marti, Salas y Calvo:

"to segleXVI mecanisme Europaun apareix to the Company of roda (Wheellock), CAPAC, l'accumulating energy per produiruna ignico necessaria instantly into a weapon, the senzill amb pressionar actions of a lever.

A Pedrenyal lánomena Catalunya, he adopts Coneix i ben aviat particulars i definedes reports that the equivalent seus dels differentiate the remainder of Europe.

To the rest of the Iberian Peninsula hom produceix poques armes de roda molt, molts coneixem envi sa Catalunya armes suministraven PEDRINYALERS that the civilian population, which aquestes armes ja mai will be considerades per a U.S. military "

Lavin, page 230 of his book:
"Locally, Were These pistols called" flintlocks ""

Encyclopedic Dizionario Italiano:
Petrinale (or pettrinale): S.M. fr. petrinal, che dallo pedrenal inglese "pietra focaia". Schioppeto to ruota, etc.

Don Quixote, Part Two, Madrid, 1615:
"He slept standing, interropiendo sleep, moving from place to place: everything was put spies, sentries hear blowing ropes muskets, Traian auque few because everyone served flintlocks"

SERRALLER: in the quoted text is differentiated from "panyetariue", so I think you should refer to
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Old 9th February 2013, 08:16 PM   #13
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Dicho italiano:

TRADUTORE, TRADITTORE (traductor, traidor) Translator, betrayer

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Old 10th February 2013, 12:31 PM   #14
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Default Deeper into the question

Well, in the true sense of the term ...
1 - A pedrenyal (Castillian pedreñal - Portuguese petronel) doesn't distinguish the ignition system per se. The term derives from the French petrinel or poitrinal (Latin pectus), meaning that you shot the weapon with the butt against the chest. They are either found in matchlock and flintlock. The sclopus was the prototype of the petronel. The petronel is a compromise between the harquebus and the pistol.
I personnaly doubt the matchlock mention; would better understand wheelock.

2 - What Lavin says in page 230 that the pedreñal (pedrenyal) refers to the ignition system, as the term derives from the Latin petrinus (stone, hence flint), we have somehow a contradiction to the first version.
Cervantes mentions that the bandits had fewer haquebuts than pistoletes (locally called pedrenãles). But he doesn't specify whether these were wheelocks or flintlocks, both igniting with a flint.

3 - One certain thing we may infer is that, the pedrenyal=pedreñal=petronel was a huge hand firearm, an (one of) ancestor of the pistol. The ignition system had to do with specific provenances, fashions and their relative technology evolution.
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Old 10th February 2013, 12:40 PM   #15
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Default SERRALLER

I still think the difference between Panyetaire and Serraller resides only in the idiomatic attribution to the trade.
Although Panyetair is specificaly a gun lock maker, Serraller (Serralheiro in Portuguese) defines a lock smith in general; hoewever for this specific case, meaning a gun lock smith.
... But Fernando K is right, TRADUTORE = TRADITORE, an allusion i often quote myself
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Old 10th February 2013, 02:17 PM   #16
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Queridos Fernando (y Dana)

l - Respecto a la etimología de la palabra PEDREÑAL =PEDRENYAL hay dos teorías: que deriva de PECHO=POITRINE o que deriva de PIEDRA y esta del griego PIEDRA (no sé escribir en griego), ("petra focaia", en italiano) y se refiere a la pirita. Opto por la segunda.

2 - LAVIN, en pág. 230, se refiere a las pocas (4) armas de rueda españolas que existen en los Museos
1 - La Nº M 487 del Victoria y Alberto de Londres
2- La N2 K 42 de la Real Armería de Madrid
3 - La Nº 1874-31 en el Royal Scottish Museum, Edimburgo
4 - La Nº 1430 en el Museo Cívico Correr de Venecia

"Locally, these pistols were called "pedreñales"" (pedrenyal, en catalán)

3 - Estoy de acuerdo; la palabra "pedrenyal" pasó a armas de otro tipo de ignción, como la de la primera imagen del post anterior, "pany de transitio" y la segunda "fecho de molihas".
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Old 10th February 2013, 02:19 PM   #17
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Dear Fernando (and Dana)

l - Regarding the etymology of the word PEDREÑAL = Pedrenyal, there are two theories: that derived from CHEST = Poitrine, or stone and is derived from the Greek STONE (can't write in Greek), ("petra focaia" in Italian) and refers to pyrite. I chose the latter.

2 - LAVIN, at p. 230 refers to the short (4) Spanish wheelock arms which exist in Museums
1 - The M No. 487 of Victoria and Albert in London
2 - The N2 K 42 of the Royal Armoury of Madrid
3 - No. 1874-31 at the Royal Scottish Museum, Edinburgh
4 - No. 1430 in the Museo Civico Correr in Venice

"Locally, these pistols were called" flintlocks "" (Pedrenyal, in Catalan)

3 - I agree, the term "Pedrenyal" became a weapon of other ignition systems , as the first image of the previous post, "Pany of Transitio" and the second, that of "molinhas".

Affectionately. Fernando k

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Old 11th February 2013, 12:23 AM   #18
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Default Deop

Dana et al

I had my cyber friend and ISIFIF member Alfredo translate the generic Deop entry that Dana posted and this is what he came up with. I have not looked into his trouble with the Roman numbers (as they confuse me to no end). Please comment on apparent errors in his translation, if found. Thanks

(DEOP) Lineage of firearm masters who started in Ripoll mid XVX century (the roman numerals don't make sense XVX, if the V was I instead, then it would be nineteen century, same as xrx, replace r with I) where it kept going well into the nineteen century. Seem to be originated in Central Europe and there were three Deep -Pedro, Arnaldo and Gimido- who settled in that village/ city. This last name was frequent among the gunsmiths ripollenses, (from Ripoll) who especialized in <<pany>> reason they were called <<panyetaires>> just like other lineages specialized in <<enceps>> or in <<cenons>>. Their trademark abound in guns that came from Ripoll until our times.
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Old 11th February 2013, 09:49 AM   #19
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Migueleter at al:

"cenons" not. CANONS Yes (barrel)

Afectuosamente. Fernando K
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Old 18th February 2013, 03:41 PM   #20
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Maybe we should create a Translation Glossary. Can you help me with these words?

puxxzén
cabalaua
famcsa
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Old 18th February 2013, 03:55 PM   #21
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You sure there is no wrong spelling ?
Famcsa must famosa = famous ... in the feminine gender.
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Old 18th February 2013, 04:31 PM   #22
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cabalau would be a family name
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Old 18th February 2013, 05:19 PM   #23
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You are right Fernando, it was "famosa". My OCR picked up the text wrong and I didn't catch it.


Armanguer, Ripoll, Spain, Circa 1675
List of Spanish Gunmakers with a Collection of their marks, Page 93 and 98
Spanish Guns and Pistols, by W. Keith Neal (1955)
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Old 18th February 2013, 11:27 PM   #24
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Puxxzén = punzón = punch

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Old 18th February 2013, 11:35 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fernando K
punzón = punch

Fernando K


Thanks Fernando K
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Old 19th February 2013, 01:57 PM   #26
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ARMANGUER: Armero y grabador en Ripoll, siglo XVII

ARMANGUER: gunmaker and engraving, XVII century

Ramiro Larrañaga "Sintesis Histórica de la Armería Vasca", page 251

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