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Old 13th April 2011, 06:56 PM   #1
Sajen
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Default Old Bali keris

Hello,

just bought this fine old Bali keris. Only the the wewer is missing. Scarce dapur with original Bali stain. And I like the wrongko from gembal jati (I think that it is this wood). What do you think, keep the hilt or change it to a figural hilt? In the moment I am incline to keep it with this hilt.

Detlef
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Old 13th April 2011, 09:02 PM   #2
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IMO the hilt is OK
Nice keris
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Old 13th April 2011, 09:07 PM   #3
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Hi Detlef,

Nice keris.
I would keep the hilt. Looks like a good original combi to me.
Check the peksi , maybe the hilt should fit even lower and a uwer is not missing at all.
A lot of old Bali Keris are without uwer.

Other option is to sent it to the Netherlands

Best regards,
Willem
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Old 14th April 2011, 11:26 AM   #4
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Hello Detlef, it's nice keris !
The Pelet of hilt isn't match with the warangka, you probably need other hilt to this
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Old 14th April 2011, 12:56 PM   #5
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hmmm....if this hilt isn't a "match" for this sarong i don't know how you would go about finding one that matched better... I think this hilt looks fine. Have you removed it yet. It is possible that there might just be something up top of the hole that prevents the hilt from coming down more. If not it's easy enough to bore the hole a little deeper for a better fit. As for a uwer, a nice one is easily obtainable. Some very ornate hilts sometimes do not seem to need them. IMO this ensemble would look better with one. I am not convinced that all the Bali keris that we find without uwers were always that way. I think sometimes they may have been sold off along the way (if precious metals and jeweled) or damaged and not replaced. Certainly we see more elaborate hilts where a uwer would just be too much, but with a standard everyday dress like this it seems more appropriate.
Also IMO, the practice of collectors to so freely trade up for need hilts and other parts is a strange one to me. Unless something is damaged or out of place it is my general tendency to preserve the ensembles as they are. After all the keris comes to us with a certain amount of history and this hilt is part of that history.
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Old 14th April 2011, 04:37 PM   #6
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Thank you all for comment! Like I write before I am incline to keep the hilt. A nice uwer I still have, this don't will be a problem. I don't have the keris in my hands until now, I will post some pictures when I have received it. David, I am also not a friend to change a hilt when I see that this one was long together with a keris but many times you can't be sure about this. BTW I think that it was and still is a well-established practice to change hilts by a keris.
Willem, when I am bored with this keris I will send it to you!

Regards,

Detlef
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Old 14th April 2011, 06:38 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
Willem, when I am bored with this keris I will send it to you!

Oh Detelf, i doubt Willem wants this old thing. Send it to me, i can find some place for it....
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Old 14th April 2011, 08:21 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David
Oh Detelf, i doubt Willem wants this old thing. Send it to me, i can find some place for it....


Hmmm. Considering David's avatar, it looks like he has a nice hilt to complete your keris. Can't beat that.
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Old 14th April 2011, 08:26 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David
I am not convinced that all the Bali keris that we find without uwers were always that way. I think sometimes they may have been sold off along the way (if precious metals and jeweled) or damaged and not replaced.


I recall a thread where I cheked the RMV and KIT files for old Bali keris.
And a lot of them where without uwer. But then again. This does not proof much. Considering that those keris are all pre WW2, one can imagine that for instance during WW2 museum personel would trade off the metal and gems for food / cigarettes and other daily needs.

Anyway, lets see what Detlef can say once he receives the keris.

Best regrards,
Willem
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Old 14th April 2011, 09:50 PM   #10
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As has already been agreed, this is a good keris.

I feel that the burl atasan that is currently a part of the wrongko may not be the original mate to the gandar, but a replacement of the original. From the photo I am not able to say if this is a recent replacement or not, nor can I say whether or not it is teak burl ( jati gembol). It is burl,certainly, but jati gembol? I don't know.

As Hartadi has commented, this burl atasan does strike a discordant note. I have had a great many Balinese keris pass through my hands, and I have seen many more, but I have not ever seen a combination of woods that fight against each other, as these two do. To my mind this combination of materials is out of character with Balinese aesthetics. The atasan would work well with a pendok, but not with the current bare gandar. My feeling is that the original atasan had been damaged and a person with little understanding of Balinese aesthetics used the best piece of wood he could obtain to replace it --- make no mistake:- the burl atasan is a fine piece of wood, its just that it is out of place.

Add in the pelet handle and I cannot visualise this keris as an item of dress, its appearance is too unsettling.

Comments have been made regarding the gems and gold that could be found in Balinese uwer.

When a Balinese decorates anything at all, including keris, the dominant principle is to obtain a stunning final appearance. To obtain this appearance they used ( and use) any materials at all, with very little regard for the value of the materials. Where gems were included in keris dress, they were included for reasons other than their appearance, for instance, diamonds were a protective device against poison.

I have seen and handled royal keris handles that combined diamonds, good quality rubies, and glass. Mostly the gems found in Balinese keris dress are not worth much.

The only Balinese keris I have seen and handled that have gold incorporated into their dress are two royal keris that were at one time in the possession of the Raja of Badung.

Of the hundreds of Balinese uwer that I have seen, the only two gold uwer were on these keris. I have a bottle full of old Balinese uwer, and not one of these is gold, or silver, and most are set with pastes rather than natural stones. Because of this, I doubt that the keris which were in European public collections during WWII were stripped of anything. I would be inclined to accept that a Balinese keris that came into a European collection pre-WWII and that is now without a uwer, was very probably without that uwer at the time it was collected.
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Old 15th April 2011, 11:03 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asomotif
Hmmm. Considering David's avatar, it looks like he has a nice hilt to complete your keris. Can't beat that.

Yes Willem....if only this hilt were my own...
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Old 15th April 2011, 06:40 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
Comments have been made regarding the gems and gold that could be found in Balinese uwer.

I'm sorry Alan, but i don't see a single mention of gold uwers until you brought it up yourself in this post. When i mentioned "precious metals and jewels" i was really thinking more of silver, a precious metal i have seen much more often on Balinese uwers. I think most of us are aware that pastes, glass and non-precious metals are also commonly used even on high end keris in Bali. My thought was just a passing one that selling it off for a more physical need might be one reason a uwer might go missing as well as simply being worn out and not being replaced.
I still think that these bebondalan hilts call for a uwer to visually complete the ensemble, but i am sure i am placing a great deal of my own personal preference on that.
Frankly i completely missed the fact that the atasan is from burled wood and can see the conflict to a certain extent. Since this seems so out of place to you Alan are you suggesting that it was replaced by a non-Balinese person?

"BTW I think that it was and still is a well-established practice to change hilts by a keris."

Absolutely Detlef, no doubt about that. My take on that though is that this practice is well established within the Balinese culture. As an outside Western collector i am less inclined to make such changes. I will admit that i did change a hilt on one piece in my collection, a decent old Bali blade that came in what i have come to refer to as "dance dress". The hilt was of very poorly carved figurative one of the type we most often see on "tourist" keris and i thought the keris deserved better.
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Old 15th April 2011, 09:53 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
Because of this, I doubt that the keris which were in European public collections during WWII were stripped of anything.

One might also ask why a fair amount of old Bali sheaths seem to have been stripped of their pendoks....
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Old 15th April 2011, 11:38 PM   #14
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David, my mention of gold was in response to Asomotif's comment:-

And a lot of them where without uwer. But then again. This does not proof much. Considering that those keris are all pre WW2, one can imagine that for instance during WW2 museum personel would trade off the metal and gems for food / cigarettes and other daily needs.


In old-time Bali, Jawa, and other parts of maritime SE Asia, silver was never particularly highly prized for ornamentation. Gold had prestige value, and respect value:- the rulers of the first kingdom of Mataram would give gifts of gold to respected visitors and retainers. People who could not afford gold for ornamentation, either for their keris, or for personal use, preferred copper, bronze or brass because this could be polished to give the appearance of gold, when the occasion demanded.

This preference explains the almost total absence of old silver uwer, and for that matter, old silver items used for personal adornment, coming from Bali and Jawa.

Yes, we can find silver uwer and mendak, but I doubt that I have ever seen a silver uwer which dated from pre-colonial times, in other words, from the period prior to European influence on the preferences of the native populations.

The actual value involved in a uwer that is not gold is inconsequential, you have a few grams of brass, and half a dozen fourth rate stones or pieces of glass; even if the metal were to be silver, again all you have is a few grams of silver.Hardly enough to buy a single slice of bread or a half-smoked cigarette.

It is always possible that all the keris which Asomotif saw without uwers in the museum collections, had originally had gold uwers, and these would certainly have been worth liberating from museum custody, but bearing in mind the great scarcity of Balinese gold uwers, I am inclined to doubt that there were all that many gold uwer fitted to these keris which are now missing uwer.

Accordingly, I consider that it would have been very likely that the vast bulk of Balinese keris that entered European collections prior to WWII had either no uwer, or a brass uwer.A few might have had gold, but almost none would have had silver.

I doubt that the missing uwers on Balinese keris which entered European collections pre-WWII are missing because they were removed during the dire times of WWII.

Pendok are another matter.

The quantity of material in a pendok is considerable. In a full Balinese bunton pendok there is between 150 grams and 200 grams of silver, depending upon design, thickness, and craftsmanship. At today's rates, that's plus $200 of material alone.

However, the same argument relating to pre-colonial native preferences still applies, and I personally have only seen gold and brass pendok on Balinese keris that can definitely be dated to pre-1900, in fact, the pendok on these old keris is a rareity, most had no pendok at all.

Keris that have been dressed during the 20th century often seem to use pendok, my guess is that this is because of the unavailability of suitable wood for an ornamental gandar.

It is well established that in all keris bearing cultures the value of ornamentation on a keris would rise and fall with the fortunes of an owner, however, in Bali we have another problem with pendoks.

Probably the most popular form of old Bali pendok is a very lightweight open fronted style that is glued to the gandar. These old lightweight pendok were very subject to damage, so when they became damaged they were often simply discarded. This is the reason why we sometimes see evidence of a pendok having once been fitted, but that is now missing.

Regarding the atasan.

When I first saw the photo of this keris the very first thing that struck me was the incongruity of the burl atasan. It sticks out like a sore thumb.To speculate upon why it has been fitted, or who may have fitted it, is a little pointless if we are working only from a photograph. I am not good enough to identify minor variations in carving, finishing or fitting techniques from a photo. Thus, I am not suggesting anything in this regard.

If I look at the general lines of the carving, there is no question but that is very skilled work. This is a very nicely carved atasan. From what I can see it has been expertly fitted to the gandar.

I doubt that it has been made by other than a Balinese tukang wrongko. However, I equally doubt that it was made for wear by a Balinese person.
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Old 16th April 2011, 12:33 AM   #15
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Thanks Alan. Very interesting info, especially in regards to silver...
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Old 16th April 2011, 01:41 AM   #16
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Yes, in olden times in these areas, silver did not appear to be very highly regarded at all. Gold was, and it seemed to be splashed around in an almost profligate manner, but of course we need to understand this in the context of Javanese/Balinese society, where allegiance was purchased rather than based upon emotion or tradition. If your lord or ruler could not protect you, you replaced him.

It has clearly been a different situation altogether in Bali since probably the early years of the 20th century, and in Jawa since probably the early years of the 19th century. In Jawa silver has obviously been so popular since the 19th century that they even adopted the use of an inexpensive lookalike:- mamas. Good quality mamas can be so convincing as silver that you really do need to test it to tell the difference. A lot of dealers who can't tell the difference sell it as silver, and back in the 1950's and 1960's I bought a number of keris that had "native silver" pendoks. This "native silver" was mamas --- but I didn't find out about this until many years later.

Silver value varies enormously, so its is arguable as to just how good it is as investment property. Back in the 1970's the Hunts tried to corner the market and this drove silver up to about $50 an ounce in 1980. Then its value dropped away again, and currently it is again heading skywards. This seems to have been the story of silver throughout history. Gold is far more stable.

Those of us from a European background seem to think in terms of gold and silver --- Franz Lehar even wrote a song with that title --- but as far as I can understand, silver did not ride on the same carriage as gold in old-time Javanese/Balinese thought.

PS--- to be fair, Franz the rock star did not compose that waltz for the metals, but for a ball organised by a a Hungarian princess Pauline Metternich

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Old 16th April 2011, 03:16 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I feel that the burl atasan that is currently a part of the wrongko may not be the original mate to the gandar, but a replacement of the original.

As Hartadi has commented, this burl atasan does strike a discordant note. I have had a great many Balinese keris pass through my hands, and I have seen many more, but I have not ever seen a combination of woods that fight against each other, as these two do. To my mind this combination of materials is out of character with Balinese aesthetics. The atasan would work well with a pendok, but not with the current bare gandar. My feeling is that the original atasan had been damaged and a person with little understanding of Balinese aesthetics used the best piece of wood he could obtain to replace it --- make no mistake:- the burl atasan is a fine piece of wood, its just that it is out of place.

Add in the pelet handle and I cannot visualise this keris as an item of dress, its appearance is too unsettling.



Hello Alan,

exactly this have been the reason why I asked in my first post if I shall replace the handle. The disharmonism between atasan and gandar strikes me as well. But like you write in #14 the atasan is very well worked and without doubt made for this blade. Isn't it possible that the gandar is a later replacement? I think that this is very more likely the case, what do you think?

Regards,

Detlef
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Old 16th April 2011, 10:25 PM   #18
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Detlef, working from a photo it is almost impossible for me to determine with any degree of accuracy the age or originality of something. Sometimes I can make an educated guess, that is most often based upon what I have seen in the past, that is, experience, but I cannot carry out the detailed, objective examination necessary to support an opinion that I am prepared to back.

This wrongko has a very well carved atasan with crisp lines, no chips in a material that is quite given to chipping, and is in a wood that that I have not ever seen in a Balinese wrongko, let alone an old Balinese wrongko.

The gandar is a very common style in old Balinese keris dress, and appears to display lesser craftsmanship, or perhaps greater wear, than the atasan.

The blade is a very fine one, but I am uncertain as to its age.

It would not surprise me if this keris was put together in Bali in the not so far distant past --- say within the last 50 years --- specifically to sell into the souvenir market, rather than as an item of dress for a local.

I apologise if this opinion is not quite as you might like it to be, I daresay it will be at odds with the opinions of most others who have posted here, and as always it comes with the qualification that it could change if I held the item in my hand.
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Old 17th April 2011, 12:34 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
Detlef, working from a photo it is almost impossible for me to determine with any degree of accuracy the age or originality of something. Sometimes I can make an educated guess, that is most often based upon what I have seen in the past, that is, experience, but I cannot carry out the detailed, objective examination necessary to support an opinion that I am prepared to back.

This wrongko has a very well carved atasan with crisp lines, no chips in a material that is quite given to chipping, and is in a wood that that I have not ever seen in a Balinese wrongko, let alone an old Balinese wrongko.

The gandar is a very common style in old Balinese keris dress, and appears to display lesser craftsmanship, or perhaps greater wear, than the atasan.

The blade is a very fine one, but I am uncertain as to its age.

It would not surprise me if this keris was put together in Bali in the not so far distant past --- say within the last 50 years --- specifically to sell into the souvenir market, rather than as an item of dress for a local.

I apologise if this opinion is not quite as you might like it to be, I daresay it will be at odds with the opinions of most others who have posted here, and as always it comes with the qualification that it could change if I held the item in my hand.



Alan,

nothing to apologise. I have asked for your opinion so I have to take it. I just asked the seller if he have any informations about the history of this keris. When I have received it I will take some pictures more, maybe this will be helpful.

Best regards,

Detlef
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Old 17th April 2011, 02:37 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sajen
...exactly this have been the reason why I asked in my first post if I shall replace the handle. The disharmonism between atasan and gandar strikes me as well.

It seems to me that changing the hilt will do absolutely nothing to change the disharmony between the atasan and the gandar, so i hold by my original advice to keep the hilt as is, unless you find this disharmony so unsettling that you choose to have entirely new dress made for this keris.
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Old 17th April 2011, 03:03 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David
It seems to me that changing the hilt will do absolutely nothing to change the disharmony between the atasan and the gandar, so i hold by my original advice to keep the hilt as is, unless you find this disharmony so unsettling that you choose to have entirely new dress made for this keris.


Hi David,

you are absolute right. What I want to say was only that I have had a feeling that something by this keris is in disharmony but don't know by this time what exactly. So coming up my question about the hilt.
I don't think that I will let work a new dress for this keris. Like we all have agreed is the atasan a very well worked piece from a good wood and I see no reason to replace it. Maybe by my visit to Bali this summer I will take with pictures from this keris and will show them in Neka Art Museum to get a opinion over there.

Regards,

Detlef
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Old 18th April 2011, 11:15 AM   #22
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Here a other Bali keris from my collection also with a ganja wilut where the atasan and gandar worked from different wood.
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Old 30th April 2011, 12:54 PM   #23
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Yesterday I received the keris and I think that I have to agree with Alan that the complete keris isn't a very old one but in all parts very good worked.
i have asked the seller about the history of this keris and he told me that he get this keris with some other items from a man who has been a surveyor in Indonesia and the Philippines before the second world war.
I have taken some close ups from the atasan as well from the blade. Someone has a hunch which wood is used for the atasan?
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Old 30th April 2011, 01:12 PM   #24
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I found this picture by internet search so I think that I have been correct which my first guess that the used wood is gembal jati (teak burl). What do you think?
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Old 30th April 2011, 10:23 PM   #25
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Detlef, as I wrote in my earlier post, I cannot be certain from a photo as to whether this wood is burl teak or not.

It is a burl, but I know of a number of burls that have very similar appearance.

It looks like burl teak (jati gembol) but close physical examination would be necessary to be sure, a picture is just not good enough for certainty.
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Old 1st May 2011, 09:48 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey
Detlef, as I wrote in my earlier post, I cannot be certain from a photo as to whether this wood is burl teak or not.

It is a burl, but I know of a number of burls that have very similar appearance.

It looks like burl teak (jati gembol) but close physical examination would be necessary to be sure, a picture is just not good enough for certainty.


Hello Alan,

thank you again.

Until now I wasn't able to take off the hilt since I have a spraining in my working wrist. The blade will need a new stain since someone tried to clean the blade and there are many scratches on the surface of the blade.

Regards,

Detlef
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Old 16th July 2011, 09:44 PM   #27
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The blade has get a new stain and I want to share the result with you.

I have given the blade a new good recent uwer from silver to complete the dress.

Here the pictures.
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Old 17th July 2011, 01:38 AM   #28
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Nice to see this blade come alive again...
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Old 17th July 2011, 02:35 AM   #29
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Love the new staining!
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Old 17th July 2011, 09:02 AM   #30
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David and Jose,

thank you. I am glad that the pamor come out nice like this and it is not from great interest for me how old this blade since it is a very nice one.

Regards,

Detlef
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